Possible MBD and other questions

[alaskachick]

Chameleon Info:
• Veiled cham, female, 4 months old. Has been in my care for ~ 3 months.
• Handling - 1-2 times a week
• Feeding - 5-6 crickets once a day. 1-3 Mealworms or wax worms every other day. Crickets are fed "Fluker's Orange Cube complete cricket diet"
• Supplements - Zilla Calcium Supplement food spray on crickets/worms every 2-3 days (no D3). Multivitamin once a month (just started this a month ago).
• Watering - mist the cage manually 2-3 times a day for ~10 seconds; redneck drip system (3/4 c of water in a paper cup with a hole in the bottom)
• Fecal Description - Usually dark, but last week she pooped what appeared to be a whole wax worm!
• In the last few weeks, she has started walking around like an old lady with Parkinson's.

Cage Info:
• Reptibreeze mesh cage 18x18x36 (just moved from a glass cage into the Repibreeze a few days ago).
• Lighting - 5.0 UVB coil bulb and a 75 watt household bulb for basking. 12 hrs on/12 hrs off
• Temperature - cage floor is 72 degrees; basking is 80-85. Overnight temp 65 degrees. (digital thermometer)
• Humidity - I need to purchase a new hygrometer for the Reptibreeze (since my other one has a suction cup)
• Plants - Just bought a pothos and ficus for the new cage
• Placement - Low traffic area in the corner of a bedroom. cage is sitting on a 2-3 ft high night stand
• Location - Alaska

Several issues/questions from a newbie
1. I think our cham has MBD. She has recently started being shaky when she walks and appears to have 2 elbows. It sounds like she needs to get calcium drops directly by mouth (3 drops daily per the bottle for Ca deficiency). I cannot get our cham to open her mouth to instill the drops. Any suggestions?
2. I have not supplemented with any Vit D3. She gets zero natural sunlight - only the UVB bulb. It sounds like I should be using Calcium/D3 powder a couple of times a month
3. If I feed our crickets "Fluker's Orange Cube complete cricket diet", do I still need to use calcium spray/powder with every feeding? The guy at PetSmart said "no", so we haven't been using the calcium spray very often.
4. This Reptibreeze cage is new for us. Should I have taller branches/vines that are closer to the UVB and heat bulb?

Thanks you very much for your time and expertise!!

 

[twatts704]

I don't know about her other legs but that front left leg definitely has MBD. What were the specs in the glass terrarium. Your specs seem to be okay with the exception for the D3. I would try to get her some natural sunlight. Also work in some D3 supplements. And yes even though you gut load the crickets you still need to dust them.

 

[Elizadolots]

well....MBD is a systemic thing, it doesn't affect one limb. However, what we are seeing is a break and not all breaks are the result of MBD.

The shaking is an issue though.

I think you need to improve your feeding of the crickets/worms. Give them real food, not cubes with supplements. Think about what we've learned about humans...calcium from food and natural sources is good, calcium from supplements has negative affects on the heart. So, go REAL whenever possible.

Here's the source you need for how to gutload your feeders: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/index5.html

Have you taken her to a vet? A vet can tell you if this is, in fact, MBD.

twatts' suggestion to get her in natural sunlight is excellent.

And, yes...dust some feeders with calcium every feeding and make sure she gets some D3 a couple of times a month.

 

[Kate]

Hi welcome to the forum. You will get lots of answers to any questions you may have here. I'm not sure abou your calcium spray which you use " not very often" can I suggest you get a plain calcium with nothing in it and use every feeding. It might be a good idea to get her to a vet if you haven't already done so. Petsmart are not usually known to give correct advice.

 

[chameleonkev]

Also improve the feeders, don't feed wax worms or mealworms for a while, crickets arnt very good for calcium either, look into butterworms witch are great for calcium and try to add dubi roaches, silkworms etc and she is pooping out wax worm because there hard to digest and full of fat, not good at all for your cham

 

[chameleonkev]

Also I would raise that plant a foot inside the viv, the UVB of the bulb won't reach any more than 18 inches so a lack of UVB can cause mbd

 

[DavidBuchan]

Hello, and welcome to the forum . It does seem from the pictures and description that she has MBD. A vet would be best to confirm that and maybe even give calcium injections (also to give you advice on giving the drops properly)
1. If she won't open her mouth to drink or hiss then you can gently hold the skin under her chin and pull it open manually. She won't enjoy this but she will open if you keep a constant gentle pressure. Only drip one drop at a time, it is easy to choke a Cham like this because the windpipe is further forward than you might expect.
2. The usually recommended schedule is plain calcium every feeding, calcium with d3 twice a month, a multivit once or twice per month. This does depend on the d3 concentration of your powder though.
3. Ignore anything petsmart or petco or any big chain petshop says. Some employees may know what they are talking about, most are just good at pretending to know. The Flukers stuff is not very useful as a gutload, fresh fruit and veg are always best. You still need to use Calcium powder. I don't think there are any calcium sprays that work very well.
4. Yes, taller branches and vines, make them a good fit for her feet and have plenty of foliage for her to hide in. If it seems that she starts to fall a lot then you might want to review it to make it easier for her to get around. Keep the basking temp at around 82F.

I think you should give longer misting sessions so she has time to get used to the shower and to have a little drink if she is thirsty.
Here is a great all-round caresheet for Veiled chams - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/chameleonsinmyhouse/395-veiled-chameleon-care-sheet.html

 

[alaskachick]

I sincerely appreciate the quick and informative replies from everyone!! I wish I had studied your forums months ago (instead of asking the folks at the pet shop). I will call around town to see if there is a vet in Anchorage, Alaska that deals with reptiles (I learned that from reading through your forums already!!).

 

[mcbdz]

This is a great forum for learning how to best care for out babies. Please read up on the supplements so you won't waist anymore money. You need to check the phosphorous and type of Vit A also. No expert. I'm just now doing research for our future cham. Check out the sites posted already. Lots of great info.

 

[HolyToledo]

Welcome to the forum. Chams are awesome and this forum is great for info -- pet store advice is usually not good!

MBD is a good possibility. Definitely a broken leg. I had a male with bone issues so I am sorry for what you and your baby are going through. If at all possible, go to a vet and get the shots. The healing process is much shorter and easier and may save your cham's life. Even if there aren't any cham vets there, any vet can get the info to help you out and can even teach you how to give the shots if necessary. We have some vets on here that I'm sure would be happy to help your vet out.

The reptibreeze is great for healthy chams but you are going to have issues for a while so you are gonna want to put a limit on how much your little one can move around. The more you make her use that bad leg, the worse she can get. Also, falls can cause more problems so safety is more important than freedom right now, in my opinion, and you may want to consider a "hospital bin" of some sort or putting up a net of some kind right under her favorite perching place. A towel is what I used so the water can drip down through it.

She is gonna have trouble getting to water and hunting for food. Cup/bowl feeding is the best and you can move the bowl right near her perch. Same with water. Make sure it drips onto something right next to her so she can get water constantly. She will need extra water throughout the recovery process to help minimize the chance of other problems.

Same with light. She should be within about 6 inches of her UVB.
ANY natural sunlight right now is a plus. I noticed that even when my Twister was in a closed window (most glass blocks some UVB) he acted more comfortable/happier. If it is warm enough take her outside all you can.

Watch temps. You will want to keep her warm and comfy. Most people suggest temps around 85F to 95F (some even more) for healing chams. You just run the risk of her becoming gravid with higher temps so I would consult the vet about that too? I was lucky mine was male.

Hope this helps and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a short recovery for your baby girl!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Your chameleon without a doubt has metabolic bone disease sadly.

Metabolic Bone Disease is unfortunately a common disease of reptiles due to lack of dietary calcium, imbalanced nutrition and/or lack of UVB rays. Just one of these things can cause serious disease even if the other aspects are all present. UVB rays are needed in reptiles to produce Vitamin D3 in the skin, which is necessary to absorb calcium from the food. Without UVB rays from either unfiltered sunlight or a UVB producing bulb then your chameleon cannot absorb the calcium you are giving it. If you are not providing an adequate level of calcium in the diet then no amount of UVB will make up for it. Too high levels of phosphorus in the diet will interfere with calcium absorption so even with good calcium levels and UVB the body is still not getting enough. To compensate for inadequate calcium absorption the body will pull calcium directly out of the bones so there is enough calcium for critical functions like muscle movement and metabolism. On x-rays the bones may not even show up in the end stages because there is so little calcium left. MBD affected animals (doesn't just happen to reptiles) can have bones break just walking because they are so weak. MBD eventually kills them because the body needs calcium for many bodily processes. Signs of MBD include stunted growth, bent legs bones, fractures of those bones (double elbows or knees), grabbing at its own legs, tongue not shooting as far, a soft jaw, the mouth doesn’t close all the way, etc.

Unfortunately the pet store person gave you some wrong information. The calcium spray is worthless and the orange cubes are terrible for nutrition. They're only good for hydration. Yes they keep the crickets happy but they have no nutrients that your chameleon needs, and now she is suffering for it. Starting immediately you will need to start gutloading with fresh vegetables. Here is some information on it: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ferretinmyshoes/446-basics-gutloading.html. Mustard greens, turnip greens, dandelion leaves, collard greens should be your biggest components right now.

Next to address is supplementation. The calcium spray has a very low concentration of calcium and isn't even worth using. You will need a powdered calcium without phosphorus or D3 to dust (lightly coat) her crickets and worms with. This should be used at every single feeding. You can also get a concentrated liquid calcium glubionate to use in addition to the powder. She is in a severe state of lacking calcium so that is the key to getting her better!

At least you have UVB so that's good! Remember the UVB bulb has to be changed every 6 months because even if it's still shining it stops giving off UVB. Natural sun if it's warm enough is even better than UVB bulbs if you can get her in it.

That leg may be broken, or the bones just may be so soft that it's bending like that under her weight. If it is broken it won't need a cast or splint or anything because that often just causes more breaks since the bones are so weak. It will heal on its own with appropriate calcium supplementation. She may always have some deformities from it though.

I'm sorry your little one has MBD, but you're in the right place now and we'll help you get back on track!

 

[alaskachick]

We saw the vet today. She was awesome! She confirmed the MBD diagnosis - no shock there. She said her belly felt "gassy". She did not think we needed calcium injections or even oral liquids. She basically told us to do what you guys have been advocating (calcium POWDER). Our local pet store only had Fluker's Calcium w/D3. I'll use that for 1-2 days until I can find plain Ca+. The vet thinks she will make a good recovery We talked about how hard it is to maintain humidity for chams in Alaska. I'm going to set up a humidifier in the bedroom where she is kept, so see if I can keep the humidity up. I asked her about how to keep powdered crickets calm enough for her to eat, since she's getting around pretty slow. She recommended putting the crickets in the fridge for a little while. Makes sense to me. Thanks again for all of the help!

 

[Elizadolots]

Keep us informed as she progresses, if you can.

 

[alaskachick]

OK. A gutloading question. I read through ferretinmyshoes blog about gutloading and she says "gutload with calcium rich vegetables several hours before being fed to your chameleon". What should I be feeding my crickets during the days before that? I attempting breeding crickets once and it didn't work out, so I end up buying crickets about once a week. Do I not need to feed them anything for the 1-6 days prior to feeding to my chameleon?

 

[Elizadolots]

Yeah...the difference between "feeding the crickets" and "gutloading the crickets" is weird. You need a dry food for your "keepers". You then pull the doomed crickets out and give them the good stuff.

I would suggest protein rich things like alfalfa for the crickets in the "grow to be big and healthy" bin.

You also need to give them water. There are lots of ways to do that.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Since I buy the leafy greens by the head and really don't eat any myself (veggies are for bunnies) I just use the gutload ingredients all the time. Otherwise the veggies just go to waste. And it's not like constant gutloading would be a bad thing. Or when I eat fruit I save some scraps and feed those to the crickets. If you're one of those veggie eaters then you can even just get a potato and use slices of that for your crickets in between.

 

[alaskachick]

Great info! In Alaska, fresh produce isn't cheap and doesn't stay fresh long, so I think I'll take the constant gut loading approach (as long as I have the produce on hand). I have more food questions, but I'll put them in the feeding forum (trying to learn the rules to forums here!

 

[Elizadolots]

Sandrachameleon has the "go to" blog for info on nutrition and feeders: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/nutritional-information/

My only concern with using wet food as the mainstay is that it you really have to stay on top of your cricket bin or you risk mold issues. I'm not that motivated so I go for the dry food as a "holding" food.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I've never had mold in my bins. You only want to put in as much food as the crickets can eat. And the leafy greens just dry up and flake apart if they don't get eaten. Fruit is what will mold so that one you do have to watch for.

 

[kinyonga]

One more bit of information...you need to bring everything back into balance to stop the MBD from progressing and then keep a proper supplementing schedule, provide appropriate lighting and temperatures to keep the MBD from recurring. Vitamin A, D3, phos, and calcium are allimportant players in bone health and need to be in balance.