elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Me too. I’ll keep you posted on how her appointment goes with the vet on Friday.
Possible Follicular Stasis
- Thread starter elizaann2
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MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Monitoring my girls’ weights monthly, they would gain gradually and then lose gradually and not lay any eggs. At some point their receptive periods either stopped or became very subtle. It was harder to tell with Grumpy as in retrospect, I believe she was ailing for some time before it became obvious. Stella on the other hand still shows changes in her colors. Every few months she plumps up and starts looking like she’s ready to lay any day…but never does and gradually she returns to normal. I haven’t had the luxury to satisfy my curiosity about if she is forming and reabsorbing follicles/eggs or not. I’ve just been taking it as it comes and always ready if she needs to lay eggs and monitoring for signs of distress.
elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ok that’s very helpful. I’ll start weighing my girl monthly now. And since I’m already here I’ll keep checking in with the vet on this. Fingers crossed it’s a situation similar to yours and we maybe get some documentation on this.
elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hello again, I appreciate all your time helping me with my beloved girl. I went to the vet last night for a follow up appointment. We did another blood check and this was what was reported. We still can’t tell her calcium levels so the vet sent a blood sample out to get accurate levels of that. I should hear about that sometime next week.
My girl still looks healthy, is eating and acting like normal and I’ll keep monitoring her carefully.
My girl still looks healthy, is eating and acting like normal and I’ll keep monitoring her carefully.
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Do you know the calcium to phosphorous ratio? I’m not good at knowing the numbers since I’m not in a medical position and there’s very little to compare it to in the way of studies.
What’s the other thing the vet is prescribing?
I hope shes getting a proper amount of D3 and making enough D3 from her exposure to the uvb to be able to take up the calcium from her system assuming that the ratio of phos to calcium is off and that’s why it’s being prescribed. If she’s getting/producing too little vitamin D3 the calcium will not be able to be taken up and used to strengthen the bones and muscles, etc. If on the other hand she is getting too much D3 from supplements she will take up too much calcium and that won’t be good.
Regarding the sand…is she pooping sand out in her poop?
I always use sand produced by Kings, that comes in a white bag with red, yellow, blue sand box toys on it. It will pass through the chameleons system and not lead to impaction. I’m pretty sure Kings sand is beach sand and should be CaCO3.
Also, regarding her ingesting sand…she may be looking for nutrients (calcium, for instance) that her body needs. From what I understand, biogenic sands have quite a bit of calcium in them…
http://www.hawaii.edu/gk-12/evo/lau...nd samples (also called,our bones are made of.
“Some sands are CaCO3, the material our bones are made of.
A simple chemical test for distinguishing calcium sands (biogenic) from inorganic (abiogenic) sands is to drop vinegar or other acid onto a pinch of sand particles. If the sand contains calcium carbonate (bones or other skeletal remains), the particles react with the acid to form bubbles of carbon dioxide.”
What’s the other thing the vet is prescribing?
I hope shes getting a proper amount of D3 and making enough D3 from her exposure to the uvb to be able to take up the calcium from her system assuming that the ratio of phos to calcium is off and that’s why it’s being prescribed. If she’s getting/producing too little vitamin D3 the calcium will not be able to be taken up and used to strengthen the bones and muscles, etc. If on the other hand she is getting too much D3 from supplements she will take up too much calcium and that won’t be good.
Regarding the sand…is she pooping sand out in her poop?
I always use sand produced by Kings, that comes in a white bag with red, yellow, blue sand box toys on it. It will pass through the chameleons system and not lead to impaction. I’m pretty sure Kings sand is beach sand and should be CaCO3.
Also, regarding her ingesting sand…she may be looking for nutrients (calcium, for instance) that her body needs. From what I understand, biogenic sands have quite a bit of calcium in them…
http://www.hawaii.edu/gk-12/evo/lau...nd samples (also called,our bones are made of.
“Some sands are CaCO3, the material our bones are made of.
A simple chemical test for distinguishing calcium sands (biogenic) from inorganic (abiogenic) sands is to drop vinegar or other acid onto a pinch of sand particles. If the sand contains calcium carbonate (bones or other skeletal remains), the particles react with the acid to form bubbles of carbon dioxide.”
elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Just got back from the vet, she is prescribing liquid calcium and that is it so far. Her phosphorus is currently 21.4, her calcium is currently 180.9. She recommended giving the liquid calcium daily for 30 days, and not giving vitamin d3 for 30 days, only give the multivitamins.
elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Do you know the calcium to phosphorous ratio? I’m not good at knowing the numbers since I’m not in a medical position and there’s very little to compare it to in the way of studies. Just answered above
What’s the other thing the vet is prescribing? So far she is just prescribing liquid calcium daily for 30 days. We are checking her follicles in 2 weeks as well.
I hope shes getting a proper amount of D3 and making enough D3 from her exposure to the uvb to be able to take up the calcium from her system assuming that the ratio of phos to calcium is off and that’s why it’s being prescribed. If she’s getting/producing too little vitamin D3 the calcium will not be able to be taken up and used to strengthen the bones and muscles, etc. If on the other hand she is getting too much D3 from supplements she will take up too much calcium and that won’t be good. She did go some time without proper UVB, I had the correct hood (T6HO). and lights but my hood was faulty and I was not aware of it until I got my Solarmeter 6.5 several months ago, I checked her UVB levels and it was measuring an index of 1 on her top branches. Unfortunately I do not know how long she went without proper UVB, and of course corrected it that day so she was getting an index of 3 moving forward. The vet believes this could be the cause of her current problem.
Regarding the sand…is she pooping sand out in her poop? I haven't seen any sand in her poop but I am keeping my eye out. I've attached a photo of the play sand I am using in her enclosure. If this kind isn't good, let me know and I'll replace it immediately.
I always use sand produced by Kings, that comes in a white bag with red, yellow, blue sand box toys on it. It will pass through the chameleons system and not lead to impaction. I’m pretty sure Kings sand is beach sand and should be CaCO3.
Also, regarding her ingesting sand…she may be looking for nutrients (calcium, for instance) that her body needs. From what I understand, biogenic sands have quite a bit of calcium in them…
http://www.hawaii.edu/gk-12/evo/lau...nd samples (also called,our bones are made of.
“Some sands are CaCO3, the material our bones are made of.
A simple chemical test for distinguishing calcium sands (biogenic) from inorganic (abiogenic) sands is to drop vinegar or other acid onto a pinch of sand particles. If the sand contains calcium carbonate (bones or other skeletal remains), the particles react with the acid to form bubbles of carbon dioxide.” This is a super helpful insight, I think you may be correct with this. I will test my sand and let you know what I find out.
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What’s the other thing the vet is prescribing? So far she is just prescribing liquid calcium daily for 30 days. We are checking her follicles in 2 weeks as well.
I hope shes getting a proper amount of D3 and making enough D3 from her exposure to the uvb to be able to take up the calcium from her system assuming that the ratio of phos to calcium is off and that’s why it’s being prescribed. If she’s getting/producing too little vitamin D3 the calcium will not be able to be taken up and used to strengthen the bones and muscles, etc. If on the other hand she is getting too much D3 from supplements she will take up too much calcium and that won’t be good. She did go some time without proper UVB, I had the correct hood (T6HO). and lights but my hood was faulty and I was not aware of it until I got my Solarmeter 6.5 several months ago, I checked her UVB levels and it was measuring an index of 1 on her top branches. Unfortunately I do not know how long she went without proper UVB, and of course corrected it that day so she was getting an index of 3 moving forward. The vet believes this could be the cause of her current problem.
Regarding the sand…is she pooping sand out in her poop? I haven't seen any sand in her poop but I am keeping my eye out. I've attached a photo of the play sand I am using in her enclosure. If this kind isn't good, let me know and I'll replace it immediately.
I always use sand produced by Kings, that comes in a white bag with red, yellow, blue sand box toys on it. It will pass through the chameleons system and not lead to impaction. I’m pretty sure Kings sand is beach sand and should be CaCO3.
Also, regarding her ingesting sand…she may be looking for nutrients (calcium, for instance) that her body needs. From what I understand, biogenic sands have quite a bit of calcium in them…
http://www.hawaii.edu/gk-12/evo/lau...nd samples (also called,our bones are made of.
“Some sands are CaCO3, the material our bones are made of.
A simple chemical test for distinguishing calcium sands (biogenic) from inorganic (abiogenic) sands is to drop vinegar or other acid onto a pinch of sand particles. If the sand contains calcium carbonate (bones or other skeletal remains), the particles react with the acid to form bubbles of carbon dioxide.” This is a super helpful insight, I think you may be correct with this. I will test my sand and let you know what I find out.
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elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hello alll,
I just got back from the vet for her follow up. They did an ultrasound and found the follicles have changed so they did an x-ray. This showed that eggs are starting to form. She has 6 forming eggs so far. I was recommended to adjust my husbandry again to support her body in making the eggs. Suggestions are:
- move back to a 12 hour light schedule
- feed her daily for now so her body is not being depleted of nutrients to make the eggs.
- make a lay bin with either all dirt, sphagnum moss, or paper bedding like you would find in a hamster enclosure. But don’t use sand because she ingested some before. (Interested to hear thoughts on this. I can do a mostly dirt, some sand mixture?)
- keep giving her liquid calcium
We will do another follow up in 2 weeks if she has not laid by then, then we will do another xray to see how things are coming along.
If she lays before then, let the vet know, we will do an xray after she lays to ensure she got all the eggs out.
After eggs are out we will talk about next steps, if it is appropriate to spay her or if it’s safe to let her continue to let her lay on her own with a restricted diet, lower heat and the added 8 hour light schedule to trick her body its winter time. We will see how it goes….
Open to feedback or suggestions.
I just got back from the vet for her follow up. They did an ultrasound and found the follicles have changed so they did an x-ray. This showed that eggs are starting to form. She has 6 forming eggs so far. I was recommended to adjust my husbandry again to support her body in making the eggs. Suggestions are:
- move back to a 12 hour light schedule
- feed her daily for now so her body is not being depleted of nutrients to make the eggs.
- make a lay bin with either all dirt, sphagnum moss, or paper bedding like you would find in a hamster enclosure. But don’t use sand because she ingested some before. (Interested to hear thoughts on this. I can do a mostly dirt, some sand mixture?)
- keep giving her liquid calcium
We will do another follow up in 2 weeks if she has not laid by then, then we will do another xray to see how things are coming along.
If she lays before then, let the vet know, we will do an xray after she lays to ensure she got all the eggs out.
After eggs are out we will talk about next steps, if it is appropriate to spay her or if it’s safe to let her continue to let her lay on her own with a restricted diet, lower heat and the added 8 hour light schedule to trick her body its winter time. We will see how it goes….
Open to feedback or suggestions.
elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thank you! I do too.I hope she gets well soon
.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
The only thing I can comment on is the substrate of the lay bin. Having seen just how particular Stella has been about her lay bin, I wouldn’t use loose substrate like shredded paper towels or moss and I’m 99% sure any cham girl would reject laying in those. I’d use organic garden soil mixed with some play sand…something that can hold a tunnel.
Praying that she’s able to get her eggs out on her own and without needing to be spayed.
Praying that she’s able to get her eggs out on her own and without needing to be spayed.
Sonny13
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hopefully she lays her eggs on her own, without any issues. 
for the both of you. Agreed with @MissSkittles but don’t forgot to put in a plant or “roots” where she can lay her eggs against. It will stimulate her.
for the both of you. Agreed with @MissSkittles but don’t forgot to put in a plant or “roots” where she can lay her eggs against. It will stimulate her.
So I do not understand why she would not be on a 12 hour light cycle anyways. I have never heard of anyone changing this up with a female. Unless they are breeding them.Hello alll,
I just got back from the vet for her follow up. They did an ultrasound and found the follicles have changed so they did an x-ray. This showed that eggs are starting to form. She has 6 forming eggs so far. I was recommended to adjust my husbandry again to support her body in making the eggs. Suggestions are:
- move back to a 12 hour light schedule
- feed her daily for now so her body is not being depleted of nutrients to make the eggs.
- make a lay bin with either all dirt, sphagnum moss, or paper bedding like you would find in a hamster enclosure. But don’t use sand because she ingested some before. (Interested to hear thoughts on this. I can do a mostly dirt, some sand mixture?)
- keep giving her liquid calcium
We will do another follow up in 2 weeks if she has not laid by then, then we will do another xray to see how things are coming along.
If she lays before then, let the vet know, we will do an xray after she lays to ensure she got all the eggs out.
After eggs are out we will talk about next steps, if it is appropriate to spay her or if it’s safe to let her continue to let her lay on her own with a restricted diet, lower heat and the added 8 hour light schedule to trick her body its winter time. We will see how it goes….
Open to feedback or suggestions.
I do not understand the feeding her daily either. Everyone I have met that has them on a reduced diet with lower temps does not adjust feeding until after the clutch is laid. Then they will feed them well for a week. She is already producing a much smaller clutch with 6 eggs.
I disagree with changing her lay bin material. moss and paper hamster bedding you will get an impaction issue when she eats it. This just seems crazy to even suggest. I would do half dirt half sand. And put a plant in it this way it is not just a huge open tub for her to target. Some also like to dig against the roots of the plant.
No reason not to give liquid calcium.
Why are you looking into spaying her? has she become egg bound in the past? Spaying them can be pretty intense and if you do not have a vet with a lot of experience in this then I would not even attempt it. @jannb has had a few females she has spayed but she had a vet that was extremely skilled with this. She can give you more feedback on doing this and the risks.
elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
Great questions, this is what we talked about at the vet:
So I do not understand why she would not be on a 12 hour light cycle anyways. I have never heard of anyone changing this up with a female. Unless they are breeding them. I am assuming she has had these follicles since July and should have laid them in August. If you recall, after I got a solar meter a few months ago I realized that her UVB hood was not effective and she was not getting proper UVB for who knows how long. The current assumption between knowing the UVB was not correct and due to her blood work she did not have proper calcium and nutrients in her body to form the follicles into eggs. The goal in changing her light schedule was to hopefully trick her body that its 'winter time' and is not time to breed so she will reabsorb them. Since giving her a boost in vitamins and the liquid calcium 2 weeks ago she has started to form the follicles into eggs. The vet suggested that adjusting her light schedule halfway through the hear to mimic winter would help her not lay eggs at least as often in the future on top of the low temps/diet. I don't know how helpful that would be but I'm willing to try it if others on here also think it would be safe/helpful.
I do not understand the feeding her daily either. Everyone I have met that has them on a reduced diet with lower temps does not adjust feeding until after the clutch is laid. Then they will feed them well for a week. She is already producing a much smaller clutch with 6 eggs. I think the idea in feeding her daily right now while she is developing the follicles into eggs would be to continue to give her body nutrients so that she does not have to pull them from her body since she was depleted to begin with. Once she lays her eggs I would go back to her regular feeding schedule.
I disagree with changing her lay bin material. moss and paper hamster bedding you will get an impaction issue when she eats it. This just seems crazy to even suggest. I would do half dirt half sand. And put a plant in it this way it is not just a huge open tub for her to target. Some also like to dig against the roots of the plant. Agreed on the lay bin, I don't see my girl digging in any of the options given. I am going to re-do her lay bin today with the play sand I currently have and a really good organic dirt I just got a few weeks ago. She does have a fern currently in her lay bin which I will keep in there and I may add a small pothos as well. If I remember correctly I think I put a few rocks in the lay bin as well...I'll find out today obviously. I believe the reason the vet is suggesting no sand is because she found sand in her digestive tract in an ultra sound about 4 weeks ago and she was worried about possible impaction.
No reason not to give liquid calcium.
Why are you looking into spaying her? has she become egg bound in the past? Spaying them can be pretty intense and if you do not have a vet with a lot of experience in this then I would not even attempt it. @jannb has had a few females she has spayed but she had a vet that was extremely skilled with this. She can give you more feedback on doing this and the risks. I know...I literally hate the idea of her going through a surgery but I'm also worried with her current condition if we will run into issues in the future. I am hoping not. I guess I don't know what to do about this, I want her to live as long a life as possible and I'm scared of spaying her and her dying or her not getting spayed and she dies with her next clutch. The vet is not pushing spaying her but is saying it might need to be an option based on how this clutch goes.
I'd love to hear your continued thoughts on this
So I do not understand why she would not be on a 12 hour light cycle anyways. I have never heard of anyone changing this up with a female. Unless they are breeding them. I am assuming she has had these follicles since July and should have laid them in August. If you recall, after I got a solar meter a few months ago I realized that her UVB hood was not effective and she was not getting proper UVB for who knows how long. The current assumption between knowing the UVB was not correct and due to her blood work she did not have proper calcium and nutrients in her body to form the follicles into eggs. The goal in changing her light schedule was to hopefully trick her body that its 'winter time' and is not time to breed so she will reabsorb them. Since giving her a boost in vitamins and the liquid calcium 2 weeks ago she has started to form the follicles into eggs. The vet suggested that adjusting her light schedule halfway through the hear to mimic winter would help her not lay eggs at least as often in the future on top of the low temps/diet. I don't know how helpful that would be but I'm willing to try it if others on here also think it would be safe/helpful.
I do not understand the feeding her daily either. Everyone I have met that has them on a reduced diet with lower temps does not adjust feeding until after the clutch is laid. Then they will feed them well for a week. She is already producing a much smaller clutch with 6 eggs. I think the idea in feeding her daily right now while she is developing the follicles into eggs would be to continue to give her body nutrients so that she does not have to pull them from her body since she was depleted to begin with. Once she lays her eggs I would go back to her regular feeding schedule.
I disagree with changing her lay bin material. moss and paper hamster bedding you will get an impaction issue when she eats it. This just seems crazy to even suggest. I would do half dirt half sand. And put a plant in it this way it is not just a huge open tub for her to target. Some also like to dig against the roots of the plant. Agreed on the lay bin, I don't see my girl digging in any of the options given. I am going to re-do her lay bin today with the play sand I currently have and a really good organic dirt I just got a few weeks ago. She does have a fern currently in her lay bin which I will keep in there and I may add a small pothos as well. If I remember correctly I think I put a few rocks in the lay bin as well...I'll find out today obviously. I believe the reason the vet is suggesting no sand is because she found sand in her digestive tract in an ultra sound about 4 weeks ago and she was worried about possible impaction.
No reason not to give liquid calcium.
Why are you looking into spaying her? has she become egg bound in the past? Spaying them can be pretty intense and if you do not have a vet with a lot of experience in this then I would not even attempt it. @jannb has had a few females she has spayed but she had a vet that was extremely skilled with this. She can give you more feedback on doing this and the risks. I know...I literally hate the idea of her going through a surgery but I'm also worried with her current condition if we will run into issues in the future. I am hoping not. I guess I don't know what to do about this, I want her to live as long a life as possible and I'm scared of spaying her and her dying or her not getting spayed and she dies with her next clutch. The vet is not pushing spaying her but is saying it might need to be an option based on how this clutch goes.
I'd love to hear your continued thoughts on this
