Possible Eggbound Chameleon

[Baileyrob1189]

Hey guys,

Needing some guidance on my 5.5yo female veiled chameleon. Full transparency, I've had a lot of health issues recently with my other pets and my vet budget is fully tapped out. So I just don't have the resources to take my girl in. And I'm kind of wondering if she's just trying to say goodbye.

My girl, Fern, lays 1-3 clutches a year. Once we really mastered her temp/humidity, we pretty consistently got her to max 2 clutches a year. She lays between 35 - 54 eggs each time. Started in the 30s. Peaked at 54 in her 3rd year. And has been trending downward. She lays like a champ with no issues.

On Wednesday, 12/3, we discovered a bunch of eggs on top of the sand, all scattered around. In the 30's. I had missed all her usual signs that she was getting ready to lay but thankfully her lay bin was all setup and clean. I don't know if she just laid them on top of the sand or if she laid them and then went to dig a separate hole and in the process kicked up her already buried eggs? But either way, this is a totally new behavior.

Then, unfortunately, she has gone back down into the sand regularly for the last two weeks. I've tried to strike a balance between not interrupting her in case she's trying to get rid of a couple leftover eggs and trying to help. After leaving her in her hole for a couple of days, on Saturday, 12/13, I found her totally unmoving at the bottom of her hole. I dug her out and she did not move an inch until I had her in my hand. Eyes sunken in. Dark colors. No eggs at the bottom of the hole.

However, the second I got out her crickets, she absolutely came to life. Eyes popped back out, beautiful colors popped out. She ate and she went to her basking branch.

Today, she was down in her hole, but the second she saw us she climbed out, ate lots of crickets and went to her basking branch.

If I had the funds she would have been to the vet a week ago. We've just had so many unexpected expenses come up that I am fully tapped out. Would love any feedback. I can't imagine surgery for a 5 yo chameleon would even be a good idea? But I'm out of my depth here.

 

[ch@meleons_rule]

I know its hard but it's realy bad to see your gurl like that try watching some neptun the chameleon video on what eggs BOUND looks like.
And chameleon academy

 

[ehdee6]

Some Vets will let you run a tab, if it means saving a life. I'd call around... or if you have a vet School in your area, they might do it for free, just to get the practice on a real animal.

 

[MissSkittles]

Poor girl. I wish I had an easy answer for you. Unfortunately in order to tell what may be going on, a vet visit with x ray would be needed…see if she has any retained eggs. The only other advice I can offer is to provide her with absolute privacy to dig and do whatever it is she is feeling she needs to do. Do not let her see you at all, as you already have learned that she will stop her digging. If she is truly eggbound, it is not something that will fix itself and will be very painful for her until she passes. It is a horrible choice to make (and I know that from firsthand experience), but when all else fails and veterinary care costs are out of reach, humane euthanasia is the very least we can do so our animals don’t suffer any.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Some Vets will let you run a tab, if it means saving a life. I'd call around... or if you have a vet School in your area, they might do it for free, just to get the practice on a real animal.

Unfortunately, vets almost never offer payment plans anymore because by the last numbers I saw, only 15-20% ever pay their bill. Vets cannot stay in business with that low of a success rate and those people ruin it for everyone else who may actually plan to pay. But almost all vets accept Care Credit and many accept ScratchPay which are medical financing options that anyone can apply for.

Vet schools actually employ some of the best veterinarians in their fields to provide the highest quality training to vet students, interns, and residents. It’s a common misconception that they’re more likely to take on pro bono cases for learning because they often don’t need to since pet owners seeking the best care or complicated cases that regular vets cannot treat will go to vet schools. And highly qualified vet specialists also are not cheap to employ.

Just wanted to provide some extra insight there since I see this a lot.

 

[ehdee6]

Suppose it depends on your area and connection with the vet community... That's why I say call around.

Even if your school has the best vet in the world teaching you, it still doesn't do justice with working on real animals. That's probably why so many are completely under skilled when it comes to exotic pets... Just reading textbooks and dissecting frogs.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Suppose it depends on your area and connection with the vet community... That's why I say call around.

Even if your school has the best vet in the world teaching you, it still doesn't do justice with working on real animals. That's probably why so many are completely under skilled when it comes to exotic pets... Just reading textbooks and dissecting frogs.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean. As a vet who has been to vet school I can assure you that there are plenty of live animals students work with. Dissecting frogs is something done in high school. There are not always exotics professors at every program and that’s a very significant barrier to learning about exotics because there’s no one teach in those situations. Someone bringing an exotic to a vet school where no one knows how to treat them certainly won’t lead to teaching students.

 

[ehdee6]

So, you're a vet qualified to give somebody advice, who's asking for help. And instead you comment on how no vet will do pro bono work.

That's really helpful for the community.

Hate to break it to you, but ethical professionals do pro bono work to help the community. As someone who's also highly educated, and earning a substantial living from it; I certainly try to do as much pro bono work I can on the side. Why? Because it betters society to help others who otherwise can't afford it.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

So, you're a vet qualified to give somebody advice, who's asking for help. And instead you comment on how no vet will do pro bono work.

That's really helpful for the community.

Hate to break it to you, but ethical professionals do pro bono work to help the community. As someone who's also highly educated, and earning a substantial living from it; I certainly try to do as much pro bono work I can on the side. Why? Because it betters society to help others who otherwise can't afford it.

This is why I have been absent from the forums, because of responses like this. Rather than letting someone in a position of need be set up for failure by an uninformed individual guiding them incorrectly towards something they likely won’t find, I wanted to offer a realistic view of the options and reasons. Instead I get insulted and called unethical. I do my fair share of pro bono work but no one should expect that from anyone. Have a great day everyone, I hope the OP’s chameleon does well.

 

[MissSkittles]

So, you're a vet qualified to give somebody advice, who's asking for help. And instead you comment on how no vet will do pro bono work.

That's really helpful for the community.

Hate to break it to you, but ethical professionals do pro bono work to help the community. As someone who's also highly educated, and earning a substantial living from it; I certainly try to do as much pro bono work I can on the side. Why? Because it betters society to help others who otherwise can't afford it.

@ferretinmyshoes is one of the moderators and seldom seen here (probably because we would all expect free advice). This is totally not at all an appropriate way to speak to someone here and I find it very upsetting.
Whether we like it or not, there is no substitute for an in person veterinary visit, which has already been advised. We can not expect a medical professional to offer up medical advice when they have not seen the animal. It is a very different situation when we fellow keepers offer up our opinions and advice. We speak from our experience and bits of knowledge…not from years upon years of hard work and study plus a professional license and well earned reputation.
What if @ferretinmyshoes did offer up a potential diagnosis and treatment and was totally wrong and OP’s chameleon suffered and died as a result? Who is responsible? OP would have a much higher level of trust in the opinion of an exotics vet here and go by their word much more than the word of you or I. It’s just irresponsible.
If you’ve been here long enough, you know me and I don’t attack or dress down anyone. However, in this situation I have to speak my mind whether it offends or not. I’ve said my piece, apologize to OP for their thread being taken in this direction and have no more to comment here.

 

[JacksJill]

Wow! just wow!

The important fact that’s being overlooked is the care credit option. It’s a loan or credit card you can apply for specifically for vet care when you don’t have funds handy.

I’m not familiar with scratch pay but it is another option. Ferretinmyshoes offered two useful options and an explanation of how vet schools and practices function. There’s no call for a Spanish Inquisition because the facts don’t match with how we wish things to be.

Vet hospitals and clinics have bills to pay and get no price breaks on medications, labor or rents.

Let’s practice being more civil and not chase off the genuine experts when they have time to lend their expertise.

 

[Baileyrob1189]

I was mostly just hoping someone might have a bit of insight on other possible conditions from her described behavior. Just in case there was something I didn't know about. Obviously not expecting anyone to diagnose my chameleon from a forum. Just possible ideas to mull around & research. I will most likely just bite the bullet and figure out a way to go back to the vet.

A lot of her symptoms don't match up with eggbind (great appetite, no distended or swollen belly) so I was just curious if anyone had any insight. Wasn't looking to see a huge debate

 

[JacksJill]

Egg binding and associated reproductive problems can have varying symptoms.

I don’t have experience with veiled but have seen unbred panthers drop eggs without burying them. The rest of her behavior is out of the ordinary and would be best to have her seen.

Sorry for the expense this will bring at this time of year.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

@Baileyrob1189 her behavior is concerning for possibly having retained eggs or inflammation of her reproductive tract. It would require x-rays to see if she had retained eggs, and inflammation is harder to diagnose. If she were my patient I’d start with x-rays to look for retained eggs and if there weren’t any, then bloodwork would be excellent to see if there are signs of inflammation or organ dysfunction, or you could start with medications to treat inflammation and discomfort. Otherwise, MissSkittles gave great advice for what you can do at home to reduce stress and give her time to see if she can resolve whatever is going on herself. Some of these bounce back well and I’ve seen others go south very quickly even despite aggressive care. Reproductive problems are not always easy to fix unfortunately.

 

[kinyonga]

@ferritinmyshoes said “her behavior is concerning for possibly having retained eggs or inflammation of her reproductive tract.”…this is exactly what I would say is going on….be aware that I am NOT a vet…just someone who speaks from years of experience with chameleons and many other lizards, and reading studies, etc about chameleons, etc. Dropping eggs without burying them is almost always a sign of egg binding or more likely, follicular stasis in veiled chameleons and several other species…IMHO. They also always seem to have a good appetite when in this situation….although I still don’t understand why in the case of follicular stasis…although I have some theories.

@Baileyrob1189 said…”Today, she was down in her hole, but the second she saw us she climbed out, ate lots of crickets and went to her basking branch.”…she should never be seeing you when she’s gravid and in her hole or digging.

 

[ehdee6]

I can honestly see now why this forum has been labeled as being quiet toxic, and why so many just leave.

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO, this is the best forum out there. There are so many people on here willing to spend time helping newbies avoid making beginner mistakes, etc.

IMHO, there is no way to be sure what is going on with this chameleon without some testing being done..x-rays, for instance. There are too many possibilities of what might be going on that can not be determined by just looking at her. Any attempt to diagnose it would only be able to be a guess…and that would not be acceptable IMHO.

It could be that she has retained eggs…maybe they are retained due to the husbandry and she is past the point of being able to lay them. Maybe they are deformed, fused, have grown too large to be laid. Maybe there is an issue with her reproductive system or she has developed follicular stasis and cannot lay the eggs. Maybe it s something else that’s going on altogether.

The number of eggs is still more than I would like to see her laying as well
She’s not young either and it could be partly her age that’s playing a part.
She was able to see people watching her while she was in “digging mode” which may have been a part of the problem too. She needs to be given privacy while in egglaying mode/digging.

Too many variables, IMHO, for even a vet to be able to diagnose without more information and seeing her.

One more thing I’d like to mention…if she is left too long without the issues being resolved, she may become too weak to survive any treatment that might be needed.

Wishing your female well…but hoping you get the issues she’s having solved @Baileyrob1189 .