Please help!!
- Thread starter Djl1699
- Start date
Looks like a significant buildup of salts from the nasal gland. They should flake off pretty easily. You might need to moisten them a little. See if they will flake off. Salt deposits are totally harmless - it's just an escape route for excess salts from food and water. But she sure does have a lot of it! I would look at the sodium levels of your water and consider switching her to a bottled water with lower salt concentration since she's obviously getting more than she needs if it's building up like that! Normally they just kind of sneeze them out, but some will stick sometimes, which causes more to stick instead of getting sneezed away.
RO is clean water, but if that is resulting from RO water then your RO system is not working right (have you not changed the filter in too long perhaps?)
I would consider testing your RO source, that is def buidling up of salts most likley from the water (which RO *should* filter out)
I would consider testing your RO source, that is def buidling up of salts most likley from the water (which RO *should* filter out)
Do you have any proof of this? Oversupplementation of what exactly? Studies of multiple types of lizards from multiple environments have proven extensively that the excretions of nasal salt glands are primarily sodium, potassium and trace (very tiny) amounts of calcium. Since calcium supplementation is usually pure calcium carbonate, it would not be contributing to the bulk of the salt content seen since there's no sodium or potassium in it. Therefore, oversupplementation is not a valid theory imo. The danger of suggesting it is oversupplementation is that the risk of a calcium deficiency is far more common and dangerous (metbaolic bone disease, death) than the possibility of excess (harmless), which this does not support anyway. Sorry to be critical, but you should not spread rumors without factual data to support it. This is one rumor I'd love to see stopped.
When you dust crickets they should be lightly coated so they are just a lighter shade of brown, not solid white from the powder. But continue dusting daily with calcium since your little one still has a lot of growing to do!
Elizadolots
New Member
If you're using good RO water, and this is happening, then it's not because of some sort of salt in the water. The most logical culprit is the daily calcium you use to dust feeders.
Note, we have had people complain about this problem who did not use tap water in the past.
It's possible that it's actually excess calcium being excreted or it's possible that the osmotic load created by the excess calcium is causing her to have to excrete Potassium and/ or Sodium.*
As Ferret says, the dusting should be LIGHT, almost not visible to you. If you have difficulty with that, then try just dusting half your feeders. Do dust with calcium every day.
*I'm not sure how excess calcium forcing the gland to excrete sodium or potassium is "completely safe"...to me, if that's the explanation, then the problem needs to be addressed. It's only "completely safe" if we know that what is being excreted is, in fact, something the animal is getting an excess of. In an animal that is getting RO water, there is no chance that the salty city water is the culprit, none of the bugs are known for saltiness...we're left with the salt we cover the feeders with.
Note, we have had people complain about this problem who did not use tap water in the past.
It's possible that it's actually excess calcium being excreted or it's possible that the osmotic load created by the excess calcium is causing her to have to excrete Potassium and/ or Sodium.*
As Ferret says, the dusting should be LIGHT, almost not visible to you. If you have difficulty with that, then try just dusting half your feeders. Do dust with calcium every day.
*I'm not sure how excess calcium forcing the gland to excrete sodium or potassium is "completely safe"...to me, if that's the explanation, then the problem needs to be addressed. It's only "completely safe" if we know that what is being excreted is, in fact, something the animal is getting an excess of. In an animal that is getting RO water, there is no chance that the salty city water is the culprit, none of the bugs are known for saltiness...we're left with the salt we cover the feeders with.
chameleonfan101
Established Member
yes nasal salt glands are primarily sodium, and potassium. However i understand the problem of misleading information but we need to remember that there is still Much more to learn about chameleon health and behavior. i understand the concern of getting "upset" at the fact that someone has a hypothesis i believe this forum was made for people to share knowledge and be supportive. And when you say that multiple experiments have proven nasal glands on lizards to be primarily sodium we need to remember that nothing yet has been set on stone there is still a large majority of researchers do not even believe that reptiles have salt glads. i feel like everyone should feel free to speak from experience and use productive criticism. There are many rumors going on but how do we know if the are true or false? we can simply try to falsify them together or prove them together. Lets all share our knowledge to save and care for those we love. Chameleons.
Elizadolots
New Member
Well said, Johnny.
Also, one of the leading researchers in reptile nasal salt glands specifically says that she believes they would be able to adapt to whatever salt was dominate in the environment in which the animal grew up. The hard, cold, unpleasant to some, fact is that no one has ever bothered to see if an animal raised with daily calcium salt supplements would adapt to express that salt.
From the board's experience, even animals given distilled, spring and RO water can have the salt excretions. That would seem to focus the issue on the calcium that they are given daily. From the board's experience, reducing supplementation of calcium makes the salt excretions go away. That would seem to confirm that it is the calcium salt supplements that are causing the excretion.
If it's calcium that's being excreted, then that seems quite safe and good. If, in fact, the excess calcium is causing the animal to excrete Potassium and Sodium, then I'm not so sure....those are things the animal does need.
Maybe a boardwide survey would be enlightening?
Ask for people who've experienced the "white crusts" to participate. Ask questions like: Was this animal raised in captivity? Define your water source: distilled, tap, spring, purified, tap, filtered at the tap....stuff like that. Maybe we could work up a picture of what comes together to cause this.
Also, one of the leading researchers in reptile nasal salt glands specifically says that she believes they would be able to adapt to whatever salt was dominate in the environment in which the animal grew up. The hard, cold, unpleasant to some, fact is that no one has ever bothered to see if an animal raised with daily calcium salt supplements would adapt to express that salt.
From the board's experience, even animals given distilled, spring and RO water can have the salt excretions. That would seem to focus the issue on the calcium that they are given daily. From the board's experience, reducing supplementation of calcium makes the salt excretions go away. That would seem to confirm that it is the calcium salt supplements that are causing the excretion.
If it's calcium that's being excreted, then that seems quite safe and good. If, in fact, the excess calcium is causing the animal to excrete Potassium and Sodium, then I'm not so sure....those are things the animal does need.
Maybe a boardwide survey would be enlightening?
Ask for people who've experienced the "white crusts" to participate. Ask questions like: Was this animal raised in captivity? Define your water source: distilled, tap, spring, purified, tap, filtered at the tap....stuff like that. Maybe we could work up a picture of what comes together to cause this.
I am not going to get into this discussion again. For those interested you can search for the very long thread involving multiple scientific articles and much discussion on this subject. I will only say this: to have a scientifically sound opinion you can only make claims over what has been proven by multiple people with repeatable factual evidence. You cannot make claims to something that has not been studied. Yes there are lots of mysteries still, but we can't just ignore what has been discovered to propose what could be happening elsewhere. I can't say what may or may not be happening if no one has even looked at it, I can only say what has been shown to be true. And what has been proven true is that the reptile species with salt glands that have been studied (multiple species, multiple environments, multiple authors) have only been found to excrete sodium and potassium in any substantial quantity and only trace amounts of calcium.
More studies are needed to make any factual claims about anything else at this point. Otherwise it's purely just speculation.
More studies are needed to make any factual claims about anything else at this point. Otherwise it's purely just speculation.
Elizadolots
New Member
Exactly. Thank you. Well said.
And yet you claim this not studied phenomenon is occurring. Speculation, pure and simple.
I agree. The irony
Also, Dr. Hazard is not the leading researcher of her field. She has not published much. There are more reputable researchers also looking at this topic.
Elizadolots
New Member
You claim that it's not calcium when that study has not been made...who's speculating?
Can you post links to articles we can read that support that? As you used Dr. Hazard twice in your FAQ, I find it odd you are denigrating her.
Chameleons have not been studied specifically, true. But you have tons of papers on the reptile nasal salt glands that say that it is not primarily calcium. Not ever, not even close. It is always potassium or sodium with just tiny traces of calcium. You can't just ignore that. You have only that to extrapolate from. That's how science works. You can only apply that which is known. And you have even less proof something else could be happening since it hasn't been studied and what you're suggesting goes against everything that's known to be true. If you ignore it and make up your own logic then you're just making stuff up.
I gave you like 7, go back to that thread and read them. And I didn't discredit her work, just said that you're using her one paper as your single and solitary proof that something else could happen, which I think is a gross misunderstanding of her intent btw. Did she ever respond to your emails asking what she actually meant by that? She talks about cations and anions. Well potassium and sodium cations and chloride is an anion, and those are the three that vary according to dozens of papers looking specifically at this. Not just any ion in the world. None of the other papers I've read echo your theory in the slightest, and they have been studying it longer. That is what I meant by that statement. Also should it matter, I would have removed her article from the FAQ the first time we had this discussion but it's been too long to edit that post (I think you're more than aware of that). It was removed in my blog version. Booya.
I just found that my library has an entire book on this: "Salt Glands in Birds and Reptiles" by Peaker and Linzell combining research that's been done since the 60's. Let me do a little reading and get back to you.
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