Please Help Sick Veiled Cham

torij28

New Member
Here’s a good start to live plants.

https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/

Here’s a list of what I have and keep. I’ve been successful with these.
-Dracaena marginata
-Money Trees
-ponytail palms
-Golden pothos.

Any tree without sap should be good. Just make sure it hasn’t been treated with pesticides and is cleaned before putting in their cages. I use Lilac bush branches and Russian oil branches. Both are really great in my opinion.

Here’s some links to vines that are good.

https://www.amazon.com/Coolrunner-R...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

https://www.amazon.com/MULTIFACE-Fl...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Avoid the eco terra vines with that weird texture. Those also fall apart and can damage chameleons eyes.
thank you so much! i’ll get her a golden pothos and a money tree since they’re accessible to me right now and i’ll also check the links for more plants and vines.
 

ElliotG

Chameleon Enthusiast
thank you so much! i’ll get her a golden pothos and a money tree since they’re accessible to me right now and i’ll also check the links for more plants and vines.
Just make sure to either cover up the original soil they’re in in pebbles or repot in organic soil. I do both but sometimes people don’t have the time to repot 15 plants in a day 😅.
 

torij28

New Member
Hi do you have pictures off your full enclosure lights down ? Do you have a lay bin as veiled will lay eggs regardless of being in contact with a male. Are you using your humidifier during the day? Are you using a feeder run for your insects? Imo get rid of the moss vine's and fake plants as veiled are notorious for eating plants and these can cause impaction risks.
sorry, i don’t know what you mean by “full enclosure lights down” but if you can explain i can take a picture for you. i also do not have a lay bin but i’ll see if the store has one for purchase. the humidifier is automatic so it senses when the room is either too high or low so it shuts off or turns on when it needs to. i don’t have a feeder run either but i can definitely find one. as soon as i get home i’ll take out the moss vines and fake plants. thank you!
 

ElliotG

Chameleon Enthusiast
sorry, i don’t know what you mean by “full enclosure lights down” but if you can explain i can take a picture for you. i also do not have a lay bin but i’ll see if the store has one for purchase. the humidifier is automatic so it senses when the room is either too high or low so it shuts off or turns on when it needs to. i don’t have a feeder run either but i can definitely find one. as soon as i get home i’ll take out the moss vines and fake plants. thank you!
A lay bin is just a plastic tub filled with washed out play sand. 8-12” (I might be incorrect on the inches I have all boys.) damp enough for her to hold a tunnel and burry her eggs.
 

torij28

New Member
A lay bin is just a plastic tub filled with washed out play sand. 8-12” (I might be incorrect on the inches I have all boys.) damp enough for her to hold a tunnel and burry her eggs.
oh okay, then that is something i can get done for her asap. is there a certain amount of time i should wash the sand?
 

Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
Washed
20210812_145438.jpg
Play sand from a toy store @torij28 a full picture this is what I mean. Can you also post pictures of your supplements plz
 

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torij28

New Member
Washed View attachment 308025Play sand from a toy store @torij28 a full picture this is what I mean. Can you also post pictures of your supplements plz
yes, i can post a picture when i get home. i will say that our cage looks nothing like yours, when we got our cham they recommended us all the wrong things (now i know) so it looks like the perfect place for a cham to get sick and probably not even a livable place for them. they also recommended us substrate and as i’m reading the chameleon academy modules i know that it’s not necessary. so please be easy on us when i post the picture as we are fairly new and not educated enough and are going to change everything as soon as we can!
 

Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
Don't worry most pet stores do recommend the wrong things that's not your fault the main thing is your here and asking for help and that's all that matters my first enclosure didn't look like this it was by studying and with the help on here I got things sorted we are all on here one another to help each other so do no judging by me
 

ERKleRose

Chameleon Enthusiast
Okay, so all of my feedback and any questions will be in red, and I've attached helpful links and pics below:
  • Chameleon info - Veiled Cham, female, 10 months old (maybe) We’ve had her since Oct. 2020
  • Handling - We don’t take her out as often because she doesn’t seem to like it, but when we do take her out we keep her out for maybe 10 minutes and we take her outside to climb on some small trees that we have in our backyard. We have been handling her a lot more now that we know how to feed her and such.
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? We started off feeding her crickets but then started only feeding her wax worms, but since she’s been sick(?) she hasn’t been eating or drinking. We would feed her 10-12 worms at a time and she wasn’t acting funny or anything until we fed her some super worms and then she completely changed. We weren’t sure of how to feed her for a while but for a few days we have been force feeding her black fly larvae (2 or 3 because that’s all she’ll eat) As previously stated, waxworms should be used as treats only. If her tongue still works, you can pupate the waxworms into moths to feed, though. Crickets, roaches, silkworms, grasshoppers, moths, flies, black soldier fly fly larvae, etc. are all great staples! I've attached both a feeder and gutload list below (use as many ingredients as possible- in the correct ratios- in the feeders' gutload so they're as nutritious as possible!). What do you gutload with, and how do you do it? Do you poke a hole in or kill the black soldier fly larvae beforehand so she can digest them? How do you force-feed her? It can be dangerous as a chameleon's airways are in the front of their mouth.
  • Supplements - We’re newby cham owners so we only have what they gave us when we purchased her, repti calcium and sticky tongue miner-all and we would occasionally dust the worms with the miner-all. You either need to use ReptiCalcium without D3 every feeding with a multivitamin without D3 (but preferably with preformed Vit. A- like Zoo Med Reptivite Without D3) once every two weeks and a phosphorus-free calcium with D3 (like Zoo Med ReptiCalcium With D3) once every two weeks (so pick a day that you’ll use and alternate the supplement on that day each week) or use the Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-All Indoor every feeding and gutload with Sticky Tongue Farms Vit-All (prepared properly). ReptiCalcium and Miner-All are not meant to be used together, so pick one and go with the corresponding schedule and supplements.
  • Watering - We have a humidifier that is set to 55% and we mist her cage throughout the day with the exo-terra misting bottle for about 30 seconds to a minute. Before she started acting different, we would see her drink water but now I don’t see her drink any at all, she used to go to the top of her cage when she was thirsty too and we would give her water then. You do not want to be using a humidifier during the day. That combined with her high temps most likely caused her suspected upper respiratory infection if she does have one. You want to mist her enclosure down at least two times a day (around lights on and lights off) for at least 2-5+ minutes or longer each time. Shorter spurts can be used throughout the night, and a late afternoon session can be added if the humidity gets too low. You want the humidity to be 30-50% during the day, preferably on the lower end of that scale. If there is enough ventilation, and it's cold enough (65*F or lower, though you can push it at 67*F), the humidity can get up to 100% during the coldest parts of the night. You can add a dripper during the day so water is accessible if she wants/needs it. Is the humidifier is a cool-mist humidifier?
  • Fecal Description - Her poop has been the same since we got her, yellowish/white combo and the moist brown. The last time we saw her poop it was slimy, brown yellow/white, but I don’t think she’s pooped recently because I don’t see any fresh droppings. She has also never been tested for parasites. If you can find a fresh fecal sample, getting it tested for parasites would be great! Dropping off another two fresh fecal samples as you find them afterwards will help make sure no parasites were missed.
  • History - She used to climb all over her cage and would go into hiding as usual in the fake vines that we have in there but now she is constantly at the bottom of her cage. I also noticed that her grip has weakened and she was squinting for a while but now she is keeping one eye closed and the other one kind of open. She also sleeps at the bottom of her cage or I see her falling slightly. I’ve also noticed that she will only use her back legs and she will just lay on her front legs. She also never used to climb on the side of her cage (screen) but she was doing it for a bit. My boyfriend about a week ago brought her in from taking her outside and she went into her cage and hung upside down with her mouth open for a little bit. I was also watching her the other day and I saw that the eye she keeps closed was bulging out every few seconds but it then stopped, it just looks swollen now compared to her other eye. We also just recently got her the Fluker’s Repta Eye rinse from our local reptile store and have been trying to rinse her eyes out with them. She now keeps her left eye open but her right eye is completely closed. I wouldn't use the Fluker's Repta Rinse. If she chooses to come into the mist while you're misting her cage and try to clean her eye, then great, otherwise don't do anything. Leave the eye for the vet to fix.
 

ERKleRose

Chameleon Enthusiast
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? We have the ZooMed Reptibreeze cage and have had her in it since we got her. Screen cage 24” x 24” x 48” Could you post a picture of the entire enclosure, including the bottom and the lights, it'd be really helpful! Also previously stated, the moss sticks and vines and bridge need to go, they can cause health issues. She does need a lay bin in her cage, I've attached a lay bin chart below! She needs to have veiled-tested live plants only (that are properly cleaned off, repotted in organic soil without chemical fertilizers, and the soil covered with rocks too big for her to eat), no fake plants or fake vines with leaves on them. Safe vines are live ones or real dead ones. It's preferred to use real vines only, but if you have to, something like Fluker's could work (just make sure to take it out or replace it once it starts to tear and wear down). I've attached a link for real dead vines below. Live vines are plants like pothos and such that you can hang near the top and weave their vines through branches. No Exo Terra vines, either. Her cage should be full of branches (none from any toxic or sap-producing trees) with vines weaving through them and full of live plants, too, with a proper lay bin at the bottom. The substrate needs to be taken out of the bottom of her cage. Her cage should be bare bottom with a drainage system installed underneath the cage. Once you get everything corrected and her back to health, you can start to look into bioactive enclosures if you want to.
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? We have the Reptisun 5 UVB and we turn it on when we wake up around 9/10 am and turn it off at night around 10/11pm Is the ReptiSun 5.0 UVB bulb a T8 or T5 High Output linear bulb or a compact fluorescent? How old is it, and how many inches away is the UVB bulb from her basking branch? Do you use a heat bulb?
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? We live in Las Vegas so it’s fairly hot in our rooms, typically it stays at mid or high 80’s during the day and at night it ranges from low to high 70’s maybe even a few degrees lower If you could get her room down to 80*F, that'd be really awesome! Preferably, a female veiled's basking spot should be 78-80*F (measured with a digital thermometer with a probe, with the probe placed where the top of her back is when she's on her basking branch). If you could get her night temps lower, it'd be amazing, as well! How are you measuring her temps?
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? We use a humidifier and put distilled water in it to keep her cage humidified, it measures the humidity for her and has been at 50-65% Look at my feedback in the watering section. What are you using to measure her humidity?
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? We have fake vines in there for her that she used to hide under but she never goes under it anymore, we also have moss sticks and a moss bridge, no live plants. I was thinking of getting her a pothos to put in there for her. Look at my feedback in the cage section. Make sure to choose veiled-tested plants from The Chameleon Academy's list.
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Her cage is by the window in our room, no fans or vents blow towards her. She is on top of this tall wood shelf and she looks over the room so we don’t tower over her at all, not even to feed her. Can she see her reflection in the window? Is the window energy-efficient or does it change the temps near it?
  • Location - Where are you geographically located? Las Vegas NV
  • Current Problem - It’s been about a few weeks since I noticed that she hasn’t really been herself and I was able to see that she’s been having eye problems, we were able to rinse out her left eye but her right eye is completely shut but she opens it every now and then barely. I’ve also noticed that she will only use her back legs and not her front legs, she just kind of lays on them and she doesn’t really grip with them anymore, when we take her out to force feed her and give her some water we try to rinse out her eyes with the Repta Eye Rinse but she closes them too quickly or closes them when she feels the eye drops fall on her eye. She is constantly sleeping at the bottom of her cage and doesn’t really move, when we place her on the moss bridge she starts to fall over almost instantly so we move her back to the bottom. I’ve been reading all of the forums on here and trying my best to help her but I think I still need some help from the experts on what her problem is. :( We don’t really have any vets around here that are experienced in reptilian care either so I’m hoping maybe you guys could maybe give me any kind of clue as to what she’s going through. I’ve added some pictures from today of her after her feeding, her left eye seems to be fine but her right eye is still shut. Any response would be great. Thank you!
Here's the vine link:
https://www.neherpetoculture.com/woodvines

And here's the helpful links and images:
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Queen
You said..." i’ll get her a golden pothos and a money tree since they’re accessible to me right now and i’ll also check the links for more plants and vines"...make sure you wash the plants well...both sides of the leaves before putting them in the cage.
Stones that you use to cover the soil should be definitely too big for the chameleon to swallow.

You said..."sorry, i don’t know what you mean by “full enclosure lights down” but if you can explain i can take a picture for you"...we want to see the whole cage from the top to npbottom including the lights on the top of the cage. See post #28, flick boy, in this thread to see what we're looking for.

Your chameleon had definitely got MBD. It's the result of an imbalance in the nutrients in the chameleon's diet and incorrect UVB lighting, etc. To fix it you need to supplement with a liquid calcium from the vets until the bones are strong again and get the husbandry righ/fixed....and it won't likely correct any deformities or other issues depending on how bad the damage is..but she should be ok.

Vitamin A, D3, phos, calcium need to be in balance which is why we supplement the way we do. Phos free calcium lightly at all feedings each week but one. On the one day you don't use it, you alternate between a phos free calcium/D3 powder lightly and a vitamin powder lightly without D3 but with a prEformed source of vitamin A. PrEformed vitamin A and D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues so it's better to produce the D3 from exposure to the UVB light or direct sunlight...and be careful not to over do the vitamin A/vitamin supplement.
We recommend using either an Arcadia 6% or a reptisun 5.0 long linear tube UVB light not a compact.

Once her bones are back to strong again and the other systems are back on track, the liquid calcium can be stopped but the 3 supplements need to be continued.

Proper feeding/gutloading of the insects is important too.
For crickets, locusts, roaches, etc we recommend a wide variety of greens such as dandelions, kale, collards, endive and veggies such as zucchini, sweet red peppers, carrots, squash, sweet potato, etc and a very small amount of apple, pear, berries.

Appropriate temperatures will aid in digestion as well. For females the temperature is particularly important...see reproduction for further info on that.

Being a female you also have reproductive issues to deal with.
Female veiled chameleons can produce eggs once they are sexually mature (get their big girl colors) even without a make being around. If she's overfeed once she is approaching maturity she very likely will produce way too many eggs, may develop MBD, may prolapse, develop follicular stasis, eggbinding, etc. She should only get about 4 or 5 crickets 2 or 3 times a week....or equivalent calories in other insects.. Keeping the temperature at 80F will be important too.

Controlling the temperature and diet will help keep the number of eggs lower or even stop it altogether....and your female should live much longer.
It's important to keep an egglaying bin in the cage at all times.

Hope this helps!
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
So you got a ton of good info from @kinyonga and @ERKleRose... Nothing more I can add there. I do want to add the fact that she really needs a vet that actually knows reptiles. You can see the MBD in her front arms quite well. betting the UVB is a screw in compact bulb which will not work for a veiled and the supplementation is really off so those two things combined are the recipe for MBD. No running the humidifier in the cage during the day this will start a respiratory infection.

Good luck.
 

torij28

New Member
Don't worry most pet stores do recommend the wrong things that's not your fault the main thing is your here and asking for help and that's all that matters my first enclosure didn't look like this it was by studying and with the help on here I got things sorted we are all on here one another to help each other so do no judging by me
hi, sorry for the late response, i got home late last night! but here’s everything i took pictures of.
 

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Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi @torij28 you have got lots of great info and links from ERKleRose and kinyonga. It's possible that your girl may have got something in her eye from the moss vines. Can you get some real branches from outside appropriate size instead of these not from pine or fir trees. If not you can use wooden dowels from a hardware store. As it can all become overwhelming best to make a list . Replace vines , get uvb fixture reptisun 5% or arcadia 6% both are long fluorescent tube . Supplements as mentioned by the other members ( keeping a chart for these , feeders ,poop , anything and everything both helps you your cham and if needed a vet . You already mentioned live plants good and lots .wired probes for temps and humidity. If you don't already have a good reptile vet ( experienced with chameleons) source one . Keep us updated 😀
20210717_211822.jpg
 

torij28

New Member
Okay, so all of my feedback and any questions will be in red, and I've attached helpful links and pics below:
  • Chameleon info - Veiled Cham, female, 10 months old (maybe) We’ve had her since Oct. 2020
  • Handling - We don’t take her out as often because she doesn’t seem to like it, but when we do take her out we keep her out for maybe 10 minutes and we take her outside to climb on some small trees that we have in our backyard. We have been handling her a lot more now that we know how to feed her and such.
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? We started off feeding her crickets but then started only feeding her wax worms, but since she’s been sick(?) she hasn’t been eating or drinking. We would feed her 10-12 worms at a time and she wasn’t acting funny or anything until we fed her some super worms and then she completely changed. We weren’t sure of how to feed her for a while but for a few days we have been force feeding her black fly larvae (2 or 3 because that’s all she’ll eat) As previously stated, waxworms should be used as treats only. If her tongue still works, you can pupate the waxworms into moths to feed, though. Crickets, roaches, silkworms, grasshoppers, moths, flies, black soldier fly fly larvae, etc. are all great staples! I've attached both a feeder and gutload list below (use as many ingredients as possible- in the correct ratios- in the feeders' gutload so they're as nutritious as possible!). What do you gutload with, and how do you do it? Do you poke a hole in or kill the black soldier fly larvae beforehand so she can digest them? How do you force-feed her? It can be dangerous as a chameleon's airways are in the front of their mouth. She doesn’t really use her tongue anymore but I do think it’s still working, we weren’t informed about gutloading but I will start doing that now. We also weren’t aware that we were supposed to kill them before feeding her so we will do that too. We watched a video of someone else force feeding their cham on yt so that’s how we’ve been doing it.
  • Supplements - We’re newby cham owners so we only have what they gave us when we purchased her, repti calcium and sticky tongue miner-all and we would occasionally dust the worms with the miner-all. You either need to use ReptiCalcium without D3 every feeding with a multivitamin without D3 (but preferably with preformed Vit. A- like Zoo Med Reptivite Without D3) once every two weeks and a phosphorus-free calcium with D3 (like Zoo Med ReptiCalcium With D3) once every two weeks (so pick a day that you’ll use and alternate the supplement on that day each week) or use the Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-All Indoor every feeding and gutload with Sticky Tongue Farms Vit-All (prepared properly). ReptiCalcium and Miner-All are not meant to be used together, so pick one and go with the corresponding schedule and supplements. We’re going to our reptile store tomorrow to get her the right supplements so we can get her on schedule.
  • Watering - We have a humidifier that is set to 55% and we mist her cage throughout the day with the exo-terra misting bottle for about 30 seconds to a minute. Before she started acting different, we would see her drink water but now I don’t see her drink any at all, she used to go to the top of her cage when she was thirsty too and we would give her water then. You do not want to be using a humidifier during the day. That combined with her high temps most likely caused her suspected upper respiratory infection if she does have one. You want to mist her enclosure down at least two times a day (around lights on and lights off) for at least 2-5+ minutes or longer each time. Shorter spurts can be used throughout the night, and a late afternoon session can be added if the humidity gets too low. You want the humidity to be 30-50% during the day, preferably on the lower end of that scale. If there is enough ventilation, and it's cold enough (65*F or lower, though you can push it at 67*F), the humidity can get up to 100% during the coldest parts of the night. You can add a dripper during the day so water is accessible if she wants/needs it. Is the humidifier is a cool-mist humidifier? I’ll start misting her cage at on and off time and it is a cool mist humidifier, is that bad for her?
  • Fecal Description - Her poop has been the same since we got her, yellowish/white combo and the moist brown. The last time we saw her poop it was slimy, brown yellow/white, but I don’t think she’s pooped recently because I don’t see any fresh droppings. She has also never been tested for parasites. If you can find a fresh fecal sample, getting it tested for parasites would be great! Dropping off another two fresh fecal samples as you find them afterwards will help make sure no parasites were missed. I’ll see what we can find for her most recent droppings!
  • History - She used to climb all over her cage and would go into hiding as usual in the fake vines that we have in there but now she is constantly at the bottom of her cage. I also noticed that her grip has weakened and she was squinting for a while but now she is keeping one eye closed and the other one kind of open. She also sleeps at the bottom of her cage or I see her falling slightly. I’ve also noticed that she will only use her back legs and she will just lay on her front legs. She also never used to climb on the side of her cage (screen) but she was doing it for a bit. My boyfriend about a week ago brought her in from taking her outside and she went into her cage and hung upside down with her mouth open for a little bit. I was also watching her the other day and I saw that the eye she keeps closed was bulging out every few seconds but it then stopped, it just looks swollen now compared to her other eye. We also just recently got her the Fluker’s Repta Eye rinse from our local reptile store and have been trying to rinse her eyes out with them. She now keeps her left eye open but her right eye is completely closed. I wouldn't use the Fluker's Repta Rinse. If she chooses to come into the mist while you're misting her cage and try to clean her eye, then great, otherwise don't do anything. Leave the eye for the vet to fix. Okay, we’ll stop using it! Thank you.
 
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