please Help! questions about lighting

[PhoenixFeather]

I am going to be getting a young male veiled chameleon soon (about 4 months old) and I am confused about the lighting (so confused, in fact, that I made an account just so I could talk to you guys about it!)

Supposedly 5.0 is right for a chameleon but the sun can give off measurements of 300+ uvb, more like 150 when it's at a medium height in the sky. I think chameleons usually bask during those times, not at high noon. But even the 10.0 doesn't go that high even at very close distance with no barrier right? So why should I voluntarily opt for the weaker light? and higher wattage puts out more uvb right? So is a 13 watt 10.0 somewhat comparable to a 26 watt 5.0?

Is there a chart anywhere that charts UVB output measurements for different bulbs at different wattages and distance? These measurements Im seeing scattered across the internet, were the bulbs in reflective hoods? How much does a reflective hood increase output?

And I have read that young chameleons need more uvb as they are growing, but I have also read that they need less as they are bad at regulating or very sensitive or something. Which is it?

And supposedly their eyes are sensitive? Should I not use a coil UVB light? I heard it's too bright and could damage their eyes. But I also heard it's the level of UVC that damages their eyes, and that has nothing to do with brightness.. or does it? Should I go for the lower wattage/smaller one? That would be dimmer correct? Im leaning towards a 13 watt 10.0 coiled bulb. it would give less bright light but higher uvb, then maybe I could keep it at a greater distance from him (to diffuse light more) and not worry so much about decline of uvb that comes with distance? There will not be any barrier between cham and light.

I know young ones are easily overheated. How much heat do uv lights give off? any significant amount? (my house is around 70 degrees, I will still need a basking light, correct? What should I use for that? regular incandescent? What kind of fixture? or infrared light or ceramic if I also need heat at night? Will I need any heat at night? (I think not)

I will be taking him outside for a bit daily for real midday sun once it warms a bit here (DC area) so I probably have some margin for error. But I want to do what's best for him and UNDERSTAND what's best for him and why. Unfortunately, I feel pretty lost right now with so much conflicting info that doesn't make sense to me (also it doesn't help that even regular light bulbs confuse me lol.) This will be my first chameleon, though I have experience caring for chameleons at the pet store where I work. Luckily this guy is past his most fragile baby stage and is a GREAT eater.

Thank you for reading, any response would be helpful. Also, sorry this post is such a jumble, I just have lots of questions and thoughts. I hope you understood it ok

 

[DavidBuchan]

Hello, welcome to the forum No uvb bulb will actually be able to replace the Sun of course. People will use 5.0 or 10.0 depending on the height from the cage and the foliage cover. The most recommended are the tube 5.0 ones for good reason, they have never seemed to cause any problems.
The compacts have in the past caused eye issues, although the manufacturers involved assure that these are now fixed. I have never used a compact before.
From what I have personally used the quality goes....Reptiglo 5.0 (lasts about 4 months before needing replacement).....then Reptisun 5.0 (lasts about 6 months) and then the Arcadia 6% (says it will last a year!).
No light at night, just a regular incandescent is fine for basking
Here is a great all-round caresheet I always recommend to new people with Veileds - https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/chameleonsinmyhouse/395-veiled-chameleon-care-sheet.html

The supplements and gutloading are a part of the same thing...to replace the lack of variety in food and the quality of light.

 

[nightanole]

Thats a mouth full. Ok ill start:
Chams are shade creatures so they do not want the direct 150uw/cm2 like the bearded dragons and iguanas.

You want a radiation range in the basking spots to be 20-60uW/cm2 range. This should give you an nice sweet spot of over a foot in the vertical direction. The cham will regulate its uv requirements if you setup the cage correctly so it can choose where to irradiate and not just full radiation or none at all.

Now to your other questions. Babies are dumb and cant regulate heat or uv exposure. This is why we give them lots of leaves to hide in, and no basking spots.

Most people here will recomend a reptisun 5.0 or 10.0 or an arcadia 6% (12% if you have a meter and know what you are doing). I recomend a 5.0 if its in the tank and/or if the tank is less than 2ft tall. They are great for aquariums that are only a 12"-18" tall. Now if you are rocking the 4ft tall screen cages i recommend the 10, which is still kinda low if the cham hangs out below 2ft. Myself and several others in the forum rock aracida 6% with reflectors and 4ft cages. With this setup i can get 15uW/cm2 at 36" and 60uW/cm2 at 6", which is perfect for me. However imagine i was doing this with a 18" tank, the poor little guy wouldnt have enough range to get below 30uW/cm2 no matter where he went. You see the problem with matching the setup to the light? its not just 5.0 good, you have to match the light to the cage. And at 6 months the light will be putting out 75%-50% the uv as new, and most drop 10% of their output after a 30 day burn in.

 

[Olimpia]

Your intuition is correct, there is no reason to not get a 10.0 Reptisun bulb. Mine are 4 months old and read ~33 mW/cm², no where near the intensity of even 10am sunshine. I disagree with chameleons not enjoying direct sunlight, anyone who keeps chameleons outside in outdoor enclosures will tell you this.

This is a great website for readings: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/usinguvmeter.htm
I think they are updating their different readings but you can probably email them and they will answer your questions while they upload their new finished data.

I have raised my panther clutch almost entirely outside in lots of sunshine and none have toppled over, so I think that there is no evidence that might suggest that baby chameleons are less able to manage UV exposure. The trick is to give them places to hide away from their lighting, but all cages will naturally have areas of shade when you use plants and branches.

There was an incident with coil lights a few years ago where, yes, UVC was being produced and this was injuring chameleons. But the problem has since been corrected and unless you're unlucky enough to get a really old bulb you should be safe. The main reason we like the linear fluorescent lights so much is that they spread out the UV across the entire length of the cage. But many people on the forum, including vets, use coil UVB lights without incidence.

I think I answered everything!

 

[nightanole]

Yup i agree with Olimpia:

10.0 are good in a good setup.
Chams love direct sun for basking.
Chams need lots of cover and places to hide.

Compact florecents were hurting eyes and getting burns, due to non terrestrial levels of UVC, not due to high levels of uva or uvb.

I think that about sums it up

Now its just time to wonder "should i get a $250 uv meter?". It would pay for itself if you had like 4-5 bulbs to replace each year. Then again $250 buys a lot of bulbs...

 

[PhoenixFeather]

Wow thank you so much everyone! there's going to be a fair amount of height where Im putting him, maybe 3.5 feet. and live plants for him to hide in. It's a series of shelves about 4.5 feet wide maybe? It's a new apartment Im not totally moved into yet so I havent gotten a chance to measure. It'll be free range, that's why there's nothing between him and the light.

I was thinking I would just put the CFL above his Schefflera plant, it's pretty tall with dense leaf cover. idk why I didnt consider putting a tube light across the top shelf, that would probably do pretty well. But the whole shelf section wont be for him, the bottom shelf juts out further more like a desk, where I plan to keep a computer next to the wall. So should I go for the CFL to keep the UV more focused away from me while I internet?

I have to go to work now, but I will go to the new apartment tomorrow morning and measure shelf height, depths, lengths, plant heights, and whatever else I can think of. If I cant figure it out from there, I'll post more. in the mean time you have all been very helpful and also I found the FAQ section and read about lighting and UV measurements. I feel so much better!

Oh yeah, one last thing! Nightanole, you said you don't give babies basking spots? so he doesn't need a heat lamp yet at 4 months? or does he? at the pet shop he doesnt have a heat lamp in the day since he's in a tank section with lots of other reptile enclosures and little circulation so it tends to get too hot. Not like how it would be on the shelves with open air and one heat lamp.

 

[nightanole]

At 4-5 months you can introduce a basking light, say around 90F tops at the hot spot. 60-90 days is a no no.

I would always get a tube light if i could. If the cage is less than 2ft wide then its hard to fit a tube light and you have to go cfl. However cfl's dont "concentrate" the light, infact its the opposite since they are reflecting in all directions including bouncing off the coil itself. On the other hand its easy to get a reflector for a tube light (lightyourreptiles.com sells clipons for less than 10 bucks) to make it shoot down.

Dont worry about you getting too much uv light, 2ft from the light is only about 10% full sun. I would worry about "accidents". They seem to not want to poop where they hang out. Mine will crawl out 2ft, poop, then go back to his normal 2ft area where he basks and sleeps.


PS: what is this thing, a panther, veiled?

 

[tony19]

Yup i agree with Olimpia:

10.0 are good in a good setup.
Chams love direct sun for basking.
Chams need lots of cover and places to hide.

Compact florecents were hurting eyes and getting burns, due to non terrestrial levels of UVC, not due to high levels of uva or uvb.

I think that about sums it up

Now its just time to wonder "should i get a $250 uv meter?". It would pay for itself if you had like 4-5 bulbs to replace each year. Then again $250 buys a lot of bulbs...

If you have th money to spare then give eerr. like you said it pays for its self when you got alot of expensive bulbs to replace... especially if your using the arcadia's those puppies are not cheap hahaha

 

[Olimpia]

Yes, a veiled that old can have a basking light. If he has a free range then you can give him a maximum basking spot of something like 85-90F, since he'll have more freedom to choose where to go to get the right temp he needs.