Please Help #Balthazar

[ChameleonFocus]

Dear Members,

First of all thanks for the knowledge you've shared on this forum, I've already learned so much reading al the interesting content and support feedback.

I am from the Netherlands in Amsterdam.

My dear panther chameleon friend, full name: "The Chosen Dragonboy Balthazar", is not going so well... I've read almost every post and book I could find to get more info and help, although I think I am doing the right thing to help my dear friend. I know the power is in the many minds and experiences. So I hope by explaining my situation and current approach you dear chameleon friends can help me succeed in getting Batlthazar back on track.

Chameleon Info:

• Chameleon: Balthazar, Panther Chameleon (sold as Ambanja), Male, around 21 months old, I have now around 14 months. Captive Bread.
• Handling : Currently almost zero, before his issues every other 2-3 days when he wanted to come out and explore the house. He is extremely friendly and very tolerate.
• Feeding: - Dubias', Superworms, Silkworms, 2 different species of hoppers, wax worms (rarely). he does not like any crickets, I tries many species. He used to be offered food everyday, when he became older every 2-3 days. He was never a big eater and was always very selective in his choice. I used to use a lot of carrots in my gutload for his main staple Dubias, besides fresh fruits. I breed my silk worms from the egg and raise them with Chow. I feed only by hand or with a bugbar, no loose feeders in the cage.
• Supplements: Miner All en Vit all on the veggies for the feeders. I dust all feeders with Miner All before feeding. I gave him 1 time every 2 months a feeder with Reptivite, besides the Vit All for the feeders I have never gave him any Vitamines.
• Watering: Professional Ant mist sytem, runs 4 times a day. A dripper plant that runs almost the entire day with fresh water. (normal tap water, but no chloride) Changed everyday and covered against polution from feces or feeders. I see him drink almost every morning. e as for my mist system, I tap water out of it in the drinking container.
• Drainaige: Excess water is vacuumed out every day and bottom gets cleaner with steamer.
• Fecal Description - See pictures, white some hard urates and normally well digested poop. Lately after treatment gelly like poo with almost no fecal content. Only white and orange urate.
• History- None

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Biggest Exo terra see pictures, well ventilated but neccesary to keep humidity level. Used screen cages before but this work better in the Dutch climate. There is a lot of airflow, I can see it when the fogger goes on.
• Lighting - 1X 30 watt Lucky Reptile Bright Sun Jungle with UVB, 1X 50 watt Lucky Reptile Bright Sun Jungle with UVB, Lucky reptile hallogen on dimmer 100 watt, 2 X 25 watt halogen mini dome. He gets 12 hours of light with 8 hours the UVB bulbs on.
• Temperature - He has a wide range of temperature available, from 34 C in the top basking spots down to 21 C lower in the cage. I have multiple digital thermometers in the cage. At night I use a thermostat and low wattage ceramic heater to keep it above 16 C in cold nights.
• Humidity - I use a fogger on Humidity control besides the mist system, keep it during the day around 60-70 and creates fog banks up to 85% at night.
• Plants - He used to have live plants, but after parasite treatment and heavy parasite cleaning a threw them all out. No it is all silk, when he is back on track I will add live plants again.
• Placement - He has his own garden suite, before he was against the wall in a quiet room. Always on a table and above us.
• Location - The Netherlands, Europe.

Current Problem

Around 7 weeks ago I start noticing little swellings under his arms also his chest seemed a bit swollen. After research I was afraid it could be caused by too much Vitamine A, because of the symptoms. Although I never gave him preformed vitamine A. I did use carrots as my main staple food for my Dubia colony. I stopped immediately with the carrot gutloads and stepped up my regime with other very healthy gutload recipes. I know it is only Beta caratone, but still deleted the carrots to be sure.
When he would take a Dubia I sometimes clearly see the orange gutload, so I know carrots where also the Dubia their favorite.

To be sure I also collected a fresh poop and rushed it within 24 hours to the vet for a Fecal test. When the test come back they discovered some Nematodes and Trematodes in his feces. To treat the parasites the vet subscribed us Fenben drops, which is the same as Panacur. I hoped his swellings where the results of parasites and that treating him would work for him immediately. But after a month since his first treatment. His edema and swellings are the same and he stopped eating... so I can't get any nutrients in my friends stomach to help him fight his swellings.

No I am getting worried because it has has been a month since his last decent feeder meal.. and his swellings are not getting less. He is drinking ok but not wanting to eat anything.

His weight at the start of treatment was 200 Grams

Day 1
I placed Balthazar in his holding cage and cleaned the whole cage and threw out all the live plants and soil. Steamed everything and placed the wood in the oven on 100 C for many hours. (Refitted his cage with Silk plants for now, when he is healthy and parasite free I will bring back live plants.)

After I gave him some very healthy packed feeders, which he ate with great pleasure I give him the first Panacur treatment. It was very easy to get his mouth open and get the 0,7ML in his system. He was then placed in his cage and stayed there for 7 days sad looking, sometimes willing to drink in the mornings, but not willing to eat.

Day 8
I gave him 2 mini hoppers which het ate with some patience, other feeders or more hoppers he refused. Then I gave him the 2nd round of Panacur, again 0,7ML. This time it was very very hard to get him to cooperate with us. He was not aggressive but simply refused to open his mouth... we did succeed and managed to get it into his system. Of course we where very gentle with him, we did not wan't to take the risk of hurting him.

Day 9 - 21
He would not eat.... I've tried every feeder insects no reaction. Unfortunately his swellings where also getting worse and his edema swelled up. His chest and side looks swollen, more since we started the treatment.

Day 21
Because he has almost no nutrients in him we semi-forced feeded him 2 little wax worms, which he chewed down. In the hope to start his feeding modus.

Day 22- 31 (= today)
I offer him food everyday but he still wont' eat,

31 (= today)

Start to write this post and ask for help.

*I now follow very strict gutload rules, all carefully based on the recipes from Sandra chameleon. But because he is not eating unfortunately, that did not come to results yet.

So please advice me on the following questions:

1) What do you experts think is the cause for his swellings? Is it logical it to be linked to parasites and am I taking the right steps? Could he make a full recovery?
2) To get his system back up he needs food right? So any help on triggering him to eat is highly welcome, I've tried all common tactics.
3) How long can I wait before force feeding him.... he weights now 197 Grams (lost 3 grams) I don't want to force feed him because of the stress risk and hurting him.
4) What do you think of his last poop? (see picture)

So this a pretty long story and I hope I am clear, feel free to ask for more clarification any help is highly appreciated!

I've added a collection of pictures, the outdoor pictures are from last summer before the swellings, for reference

Many thanks in advance,

CF

 

[JacksJill]

Can you show us the supplement you are using? Does it contain D3. I suspect the is getting too much D3 but want to confirm that.

 

[JacksJill]

If this is what you are using daily he is getting too much D3. It should only be used twice a month in Panthers with plain calcium the rest of the time.

 

[ChameleonFocus]

p.s

Can you show us the supplement you are using? Does it contain D3. I suspect the is getting too much D3 but want to confirm that.

Sure, see the pictures, my main supplements contains zero D3. The Reptivite does contain D3, but I only use it very very light every 2 months on 1 feeder, dusted.

 

[JacksJill]

What I can tell you is that he is rather fat and it looks like he has gular edema. His casque should be closer to flat rather than bulging and domed from fat deposits. The collar around hid neck and under his chin is where fluid can build up when they have edema. There are a few possible causes.

 

[ChameleonFocus]

What I can tell you is that he is rather fat and it looks like he has gular edema. His casque should be closer to flat rather than bulging and domed from fat deposits. The collar around hid neck and under his chin is where fluid can build up when they have edema. There are a few possible causes.

Thanks for your reply, I agree with your observations. What would you do if you where me at this point? In specific:

How long can I wait before force feeding him.... he weights now 197 Grams (lost 3 grams) I don't want to force feed him because of the stress risk and hurting him. The vet suggested to start doing it but they have no experience with chameleons, so I want to know how it is safe to wait...

Thanks in advance

 

[ChameleonFocus]

Thanks for your reply, I agree with your observations. What would you do if you where me at this point? In specific:

How long can I wait before force feeding him.... he weights now 197 Grams (lost 3 grams) I don't want to force feed him because of the stress risk and hurting him. The vet suggested to start doing it but they have no experience with chameleons, so I want to know how it is safe to wait...

Thanks in advance

p.s.

 

[kinyonga]

Force feeding should be a last resort. Try dripping water on th end of his nose and when he starts drinking stick an insect BETWEEN his teeth so he bites down on it and eats it.

 

[JacksJill]

He does need to eat a little but not very much right now. If you can just get 3-4 feeders a week into him right now that will probably be enough while his weight comes down. There are a few possible causes of gular edema. Sometimes it is seen in pregnant females, probably from pressure on the kidneys that are partially in the pelvis, another cause is over supplementation or far out of balance gut load. The last is organ failure. Without knowing for sure which it is I can only suggest feeding insects not wax-worms (fatty) if possible by the method Kinyonga suggested above. I would only do 2-3 feedings per week at most. He should eat some small amounts so he doesn't develop metabolic problems from not eating at all while you reduce his weight.

 

[JacksJill]

If it is possible for your vet to do blood work that might be the best choice at this point and will be the best chance of getting solid answers and a definite treatment plan. If not feed him just a little and keep him hydrated as best you can.

 

[ChameleonFocus]

Force feeding should be a last resort. Try dripping water on th end of his nose and when he starts drinking stick an insect BETWEEN his teeth so he bites down on it and eats it.

Thanks so much for the suggestion! This morning while he was drinking I managed to stick a mini hopper in his mouth and a little bit later the back part (no legs) of a slightly bigger hopper. It's not much and will try again next morning, but it's a start.

Would you still offer him food through the day if he is in this mood? I am afraid that leaving the bugbar in his cage with all fresh and crawling insect all the time, he looses interest because he get's use to the bugs being around him... or is this silly?

Thanks again so much for the tip, I am really happy he has something in his system this morning!

 

[ChameleonFocus]

If it is possible for your vet to do blood work that might be the best choice at this point and will be the best chance of getting solid answers and a definite treatment plan. If not feed him just a little and keep him hydrated as best you can.

My exotic vet is not a fan of doing blood work on Balthazar. He has no experience with chameleons so setting up a treatment plan would be a challenge. I am looking for a chameleon expert in the Netherlands, any suggestion of course more then welcome but I doubt you can help me with that

 

[ChameleonFocus]

Update + pictures Balthazar this morning & quarantine setup impression.

I managed to get some food in his system with the water dripper tip! His edema also looks a bit less in the morning, but that's usually the case.

I will try to get a couple feeders in him every week with various non-forcing methods and hope his system kicks back into gear.

- Regarding his Gular Edema; how worse / which stadium do you think he is in?
- Is it still reversible and can he make a full recovery?
- And most importantly is it hurting him?

Thanks in advance,

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks so much for the suggestion! This morning while he was drinking I managed to stick a mini hopper in his mouth and a little bit later the back part (no legs) of a slightly bigger hopper. It's not much and will try again next morning, but it's a start.

Would you still offer him food through the day if he is in this mood? I am afraid that leaving the bugbar in his cage with all fresh and crawling insect all the time, he looses interest because he get's use to the bugs being around him... or is this silly?

Thanks again so much for the tip, I am really happy he has something in his system this morning!

You can feed him more early in the day,,,but don't overfeed him.

His thread had no solution but you might like to read it...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/swollen-underarms.121523/