Please enlighten me. WC veileds.

[Cainschams]

I see these WC veileds from populations inside the US for sale somewhat frequently on here and kingsnake. My question is why do they go for almost 10 times the amount as a regular veiled? If anything I would think they would be cheaper than a CB. Sellers or people who go pick them dont really have much work to do. Mother nature raises them so most of the work is already done. Seems a lot easier to go pick them off a tree, pack them up and ship them off. I would like to hear some reasoning behind this.

 

[morpheon]

I can't help you here!! And i would like to know the logic in that too!

 

[CleaTheChameleon]

Maybe its due to the fact that some WC veileds are brighter and larger then regular CB veileds. I think the fact that many people want some WC blood in their breeding projects. I know Eric A. on here has a WC male and he is HUGE compared to the veileds we see.

It is all about how rare and different they are. Thats my guess.

 

[Vegas Chad]

A WC FL veiled is no better than a cbb veiled as they come from known stock in some way. Why they are more is kinda funny to me... I won't buy a "wc" veiled anytime soon. However when/if real WC's come in I will jump on that.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Jared,

I would understand a WC Ch. calyptratus from Yemen going for more money because it is new blood being infused into the captive population. Forida WC Ch. calyptratus, on the other hand, are no more new blood being infused into the captive population as any typical captive bloodline. The only thing that is different is that the Florida WC Ch. calyptratus have had a wide variety of wild caught food items and plenty of natural sunlight, without artificial supplements and as a result may have a more balanced nutrition. This more balanced nutrition can be passed on to the offspring. That said, while many chameleon species seem to exhibit a decreased clutch size, strength and breeding potential with each generation in captivity, Ch. calyptratus seem to have the least issue with this. Further, stress hormones from higher stress rates in captive wild caught animals are also passed on to the offspring and cause immune system depression. What I'm saying is, as long as the WC individual is no prettier than another CB animal, I don't see why Florida WC, or offspring from Florida WC, would inherently be more expensive than normal CB offspring, either.

Chris

 

[Lizardlover]

I've always thought the same thing. It is not any new blood because the "WC" animals are technically cbb animals that are living in the wild.

 

[Cainschams]

Chad and Chris,

I completely agree. I can see paying more for an animal with exceptionally better colors than the norm. I also understand that the WC animals from Florida have much more of a natural diet, sunlight etc. Although I do not see the point in jacking up the price 200 plus dollars than a normal CBB.

What I do not understand, or simply do not agree with, is when I read the whole thing about introducing new blood and not having to worry about inbreeding because they are WC. If anything I think you have a better chance of acquiring an inbred animal from purchasing a Florida WC. I would not think these populations are huge and I highly doubt there were a bunch of different bloodlines released into the wild to produce these small populations. In the scenario that plays in my mind. A few animals were released, they survived and bred, offspring hatched and bred with very close relatives etc. Just like the jacksonii in Hawaii.

I was wondering if there was any real information that would prove them to be "new blood" or a higher chance of not acquiring a related animal, which I highly doubted I would hear. All in all............I guess its a good marketing scam (not scheme).

 

[Kent67]

Whether there is any real benefit to it or not I don't know, but the "WC" Florida veileds are able to have mate selection as well as a number of other naturally selective stressors that would lead to the "survival of the fittest." DNA is not static and I'm not so sure that I'd agree that wild Florida veileds, multiple generations removed from captivity, are the same as our mass-produced, 100% artificially-selected pairings from the last 15 years. Having said that, I do agree that wild-collected Ch. calyptratus from Yemen would be well worth whatever price.

 

[Syn]

Makes me want to take a trip to FL and grab enough for the cost of my ticket and hotel and food, sell them... then come back... LOL

All joking aside, perhaps people (wrongly) assume there is some massive amount of new genetics introduced, as thought with most other WCs.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Whether there is any real benefit to it or not I don't know, but the "WC" Florida veileds are able to have mate selection as well as a number of other naturally selective stressors that would lead to the "survival of the fittest." DNA is not static and I'm not so sure that I'd agree that wild Florida veileds, multiple generations removed from captivity, are the same as our mass-produced, 100% artificially-selected pairings from the last 15 years. Having said that, I do agree that wild-collected Ch. calyptratus from Yemen would be well worth whatever price.

True they may select against weaker individuals in breeding success and thus selection against some weaker gene combinations as a result. That said, there is still the genetic bottleneck of the introduced subsection of the captive gene pool and even selection against weaker combinations of that subsection does not increase genetic diversity. If anything, that selection could actually be a reduction of the genetic diversity. While we could argue that its a beneficial reduction by reducing weak genes, reducing genetic diversity usually isn't a good thing for the long term success of a population. Its an interesting tradeoff. Definitely not a clearcut positive or negative.

Chris

 

[Chameleon Loco]

WC is needed but only for breeding

Captive Breeding has made the veiled chameleon alot more affordable than when they were first imported. The only use for wc veiled's is to add new genes to a gene pool if one is attempting to bring out a trait in a line of veiled's though inbreeding them from generation to generation

 

[Eric Adrignola]

There seemed to be a larger percentage of larger males in the FL WC animals than in the CB population in general.

The biggest benefit to getting a FLWC animal is natural selection. A few generations of natural selection in the wild will result in very robust animals. Most breeders don't cull a high proportion of their animals. Allowing the environment of Florida do the culling and selection is kind of the point.

The main reason the WC animals are expensive are not because they are FLWC, but because many of them were huge. A breeder may pay $300 for a 24" male, WC, FLWC or CB. I wouldn't pay any more for one vs a CB of the same size/coloration.

In fact, I'm selling the babies of my FLWC animals a bit cheaper than those of my CB bloodline, which, in my opinion, had ideal coloration(though was considerably smaller than the FLWC bloodline).

 

[Kent67]

Look at the founding population of the Hawaiian populations of j. xanths. It's been what, 35 years since they were introduced there? Would those 30 individuals' progeny still be around after this much time if they were being selectively bred rather than being able to select for themselves? I don't think so, not even under the very best of captive conditions. While there may be a genetic bottleneck because of the size of the founding pop, I think (based purely on anecdotal evidence) the risk of deleterious effects over the generations is much lower in reptiles than in, say, higher mammals.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Animals that have large numbers of offspring (which themselves vary greatly within a clutch), tend to be very adaptable. Small founding population size is not a huge problem. Deleterious genes are not so much of a problem when natural selective factors are at work.

Despite the small founding population of animals in Florida, I would be inclined to think them to be less susceptible to genetic problems than the CB population.

 

[kongchi]

WC Veileds are certified by nature and have passed the "survival of the fittest" test. =P

 

[TrueCut]

I have lived in Florida for 25yrs Never seen a Wild Veiled Chameleon. However if anyone can point me in the right direction I may go on a safari and catch me a few who knows maybe even get lost in the Florida everglades.

 

[Eszzie]

By breeding more and more generations in CB veiled you get to keep the weaker animals alive and breed with them to which results in smaller, less brightly colored and weaker animals. Like said before the WC animals are the survivors with stronger genes. Even though I would rather get a WC from Jeme if it would be possible, back in the days when a veiled used to be 3 times the size of a panther! Personally in captive breeding it isn't wrong to select stronger and weaker animals, i've fed my big chameleons baby chameleons now and then when they were the weaker ones in a group. Usually nature selects these weaker animals and the would die eventually, the reason why we try to keep these weaker animals alive just has to do with emotions and money.

 

[Chris Anderson]

First, I definitely agree that natural selection is a huge benefit over allowing weak individuals to add their input into a captive population and as you said, Kent, chameleons have shown themselves to be able to expand into large, flourishing populations with a quite small founding population. That said, I think there are a couple different angles to this discussion about the value of FL WC animals compared to CBB animals.

The first angle is that size and color being equal, are FL WC Ch. calyptratus inherently more valuable than CBB? I would argue that they aren't. While I would agree that the resultant CBB progeny of 30 T. j. xantholophus wouldn't still be around after 35 years without natural selection, I don't think the same is true for Ch. calyptratus necessarily. If my options were getting 5+ generation CB T. j. xantholophus blood or less common US WC T. j. xantholophus blood, I'd pay more for the US WC T. j. xantholophus blood, even if the coloration wasn't as good and even if the animals were not any larger simply because of how strength decreases in each CB generation for this species. If I had the same option with Ch. calyptratus, I don't know that I would pay extra for FL WC blood where the animals were not as colorful or any larger.

The other angle, however, assumes that FL WC animals, having gone through a series of natural selection generations, tend to yield larger animals, having not had the input of weaker individuals and also having had well rounded natural nutrition. While this is often the case with FL WC animals, it assumes the specimens available are in fact of superior size and nutritional strength than the available CB animals. Not all of the FL WC animals I've seen are particularly large animals, however, and many of the large animals I've seen look like crap. Not all FL WC animals are created equal, in my opinion, and I think any higher value is due to the genetic input of a large, colorful animal, not necessarily just any FL WC animal.

Chris

 

[james L]

Well put Chris.
The wholesale price for FL WCs are cheap! Hell last summer I could pick up average sized adults females for $25 and one of the most attractive males I have ever owned cost me only $50. Its all about finding the right collecter. There also not easy to collect. You can really only find them at night and most of the people who collect them, trespass. So really some of the prices are fair. When it come to size and color you have to remember there is more then one population and each population may be different then others. Im not sure where the majority is coming from currently. Looks like alot from Ft. Meyers. I recently meet a guy online who started a new population from an older population. I think this is going to be a growing trend soon. So far Ive heard of around five populations ranging from Miami to Spring Hill area. The Miami pop. is the only Veiled pop. I know of on the east coast of FL. In time I think Veileds will become well established in FL. Give them 10 years. There will be a day when I walk down my sidewalk and spot them in the trees around me like I do with the Knight Anoles now.

 

[Carlton]

Chris

I would be concerned that "WC" (ie feral) veileds from FL might also have fairly high body fat concentrations of pesticides and other agricultural chemical contaminants. Even if they haven't damaged one individual, there are quite a few reproductive and metabolic effects from these over time. Persistent environmental contaminants do tend to accumulate in food chain predators...like a cham. I would doubt that a WC veiled from Yemen would have the same levels.