parson's...

[Julirs]

I hate that animals like this can become status symbols-so that relatively new keepers with expendable income buy them just to say they have them. There are few people even on this forum that have the experience and correct "reasons" to even own them.

 

[summoner12]

What came first,Chicken or the egg?

JEEEEESSSSSSSUUSSSSSS

 

[Karen]

Parsonii are by no means easy, anybody who thinks they are are sadly misguided, as Chris says the require vast amounts of water, i would say my mister goes through 30 litres a day thats not including drippers.
Its not easy keeping temps low without being to cold and keeping the humidity up.
They may like one feeder one day and hate it the next day, they unlike panthers and veiled chameleons are very unforgiving of mistakes, and husbandry must be spot on, not that it shouldn't be with any chameleon species. I dont often put my two penneth worth in but felt i needed to.

 

[Kent67]

I hate that animals like this can become status symbols-so that relatively new keepers with expendable income buy them just to say they have them. There are few people even on this forum that have the experience and correct "reasons" to even own them.

EXACTLY. Want a big chameleon? Get a Meller's; not something that you have to pay some criminal to steal, smuggle, or launder for you.

Also, well said Fidel. With no demand there's no smuggling. To say you hate how these animals end up here only to turn around and say you're STILL going to buy some makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[chams1]

Very well said Karen and Kent. As much as I have experience with different species and as much as I would love to own a parsons, I would never dream of such a thing, not only for the above reasons, but I also know that I could never give it the time and the amount of everything that is truly involved with proper keeping (and upkeep) of these wonderful creatures. It would not be fair to the cham so I would never dream of it, even if I did have the funds to embark on such an endeavor.

 

[Carlton]

EXACTLY. Want a big chameleon? Get a Meller's; not something that you have to pay some criminal to steal, smuggle, or launder for you.

Well, no Meller's is going to be easy to cater to either and they deserve as much respect as a parsoni. I'm sure you didn't intend to "label" Meller's as the poor man's parsoni but after living with them, understanding and loving them I would HATE to think of anyone steering prospective pet owners to this species just because it is big. Too many melleri suffer and die from poor treatment in the hands of trappers, exporters, importers, and jobbers. They are still relatively common and inexpensive to buy which is why some show up in pet shops and on less responsible dealer lists. Maybe they are "lucky" enough to be more common in the wild, but that won't save the hundreds who suffer or die in transit. Years ago before CITES cracked down on Mada's endemic species trade and imposed quotas, you could buy a miserable parsoni for about what you'd pay for a miserable melleri today. Doesn't make it right then or now. When I happen to find wc melleri on someone's availability list or in a local pet shop my mental ranking of that business drops a long way.

OK, sigh, step off soapbox.

 

[ChameleonAlley]

I am sorry but your efforts will do nothing for this species in the wild. Do you really think that when a species is extinct or near extinct that the government is just going to allow some Joe Shmoe hobby breeder to dump his "stock" back into the wild? Do you think that some success with this species will stop the smuggling of these species? I highly doubt it. Not even government restrictions can fully put a stop to it. However, to call these people in third world countries a piece of....trying to make a buck, is an arrogant and ignorant statement. They are fighting to survive. It does not make it right but do you know what it is like to be in their situation? I think not. None of us do. As much as you or anyone else thinks humans as a whole, or even us more "civilized cultures", are different from other animals needs to step back and.......well, dispose of themselves. I think some of us forget where we come from or do not believe

I third this.

Also, like Fidel said, when you have a demand then someone out there is willing to supply it. I really think that you would be doing the animal and it's species more harm by trying to get them.

 

[summoner12]

EXACTLY. Want a big chameleon? Get a Meller's; not something that you have to pay some criminal to steal, smuggle, or launder for you.

Well, no Meller's is going to be easy to cater to either and they deserve as much respect as a parsoni. I'm sure you didn't intend to "label" Meller's as the poor man's parsoni but after living with them, understanding and loving them I would HATE to think of anyone steering prospective pet owners to this species just because it is big. Too many melleri suffer and die from poor treatment in the hands of trappers, exporters, importers, and jobbers. They are still relatively common and inexpensive to buy which is why some show up in pet shops and on less responsible dealer lists. Maybe they are "lucky" enough to be more common in the wild, but that won't save the hundreds who suffer or die in transit. Years ago before CITES cracked down on Mada's endemic species trade and imposed quotas, you could buy a miserable parsoni for about what you'd pay for a miserable melleri today. Doesn't make it right then or now. When I happen to find wc melleri on someone's availability list or in a local pet shop my mental ranking of that business drops a long way.

OK, sigh, step off soapbox.

I would like to second this.

Melleri should NOT be taken lightly. I have 7... and I rely on many other keepers for help and info on issues that arrise. Doesn't mean I don't have confidence... but it sure feels good to know someone has your back when you have issues.

And Melleri look VERY sad when in the store. This is how I end up getting more... I feel bad and I buy the poor guy. This is bad, just like buying a cham from Petco or petsmart.. it only makes the store buy another

 

[chams1]

And Melleri look VERY sad when in the store. This is how I end up getting more... I feel bad and I buy the poor guy. This is bad, just like buying a cham from Petco or petsmart.. it only makes the store buy another

Ditto. When I see some of them at shows (at tables of very unqualified vendors looking to make a buck), I have to just wipe my tears and look away and not go back to that side of the show, because I know that I don't have any more room to take on more melleri than I already have. I am certain that they will just die in their current state and the way they are being kept (or in the state they will be in with whomever purchases them because they are "cool").

 

[summoner12]

Ditto. When I see some of them at shows (at tables of very unqualified vendors looking to make a buck), I have to just wipe my tears and look away and not go back to that side of the show, because I know that I don't have any more room to take on more melleri than I already have. I am certain that they will just die in their current state and the way they are being kept (or in the state they will be in with whomever purchases them because they are "cool").

I like to hover around and see who buys... then go and talk to them... This is a huge reason the SBCK had the booth at this show. I really hope we can do it again!

ok back to topic.... don't buy chameleons you haven't done any research with. It is bad for the animal.

 

[Kent67]

Well, no Meller's is going to be easy to cater to either and they deserve as much respect as a parsoni. I'm sure you didn't intend to "label" Meller's as the poor man's parsoni but after living with them, understanding and loving them I would HATE to think of anyone steering prospective pet owners to this species just because it is big.

Why not? Any species of chameleon requires a good deal of knowledge to provide proper care. Captive hatched Meller's are available at least every couple of years, are relatively easy to care for when so, imo have more interesting behaviors, and most importantly are sourced from legally exported animals. If somebody wants a big, impressive chameleon, why shouldn't a captive-hatched Meller's be recommended? I wouldn't recommend anyone get any chameleon without being prepared to properly research and provide the care for them. Believe it or not, even beginners can have success with species other than veileds and panthers when they do their homework.

I would like to second this.

Melleri should NOT be taken lightly. I have 7...

Nobody ever said anything about taking any species of chameleon lightly. But, regardless, for you to get those 7 Meller's nobody had to smuggle them, or their parents, out of East Africa, against international laws designed to protect them from going extinct in the wild. That's the point.

 

[Carlton]

Why not? Any species of chameleon requires a good deal of knowledge to provide proper care. Captive hatched Meller's are available at least every couple of years, are relatively easy to care for when so, imo have more interesting behaviors, and most importantly are sourced from legally exported animals. If somebody wants a big, impressive chameleon, why shouldn't a captive-hatched Meller's be recommended? I wouldn't recommend anyone get any chameleon without being prepared to properly research and provide the care for them. Believe it or not, even beginners can have success with species other than veileds and panthers when they do their homework.

Oh, I completely agree that some beginners do fine with a species other than a veiled or panther if they find they are fascinated by a particular species and exhaust all information and are sure they can house one properly before getting one.

I was thinking of the more common and cheap wc melleri someone is going to see at a shop and impulse buy because they are "the biggest" compared to the nice healthy cbb veiled in the next cage. Still, due to their space, larger feeder, watering requirements, problems with tissue necrosis, and the occasional nervous or nasty temperment some have (like a grouchy veiled with a serious bite!), I still probably wouldn't recommend them as a beginner species.

 

[Todnedo]

And people wonder why Parsonii owners like to keep a low profile

 

[Kent67]

I still probably wouldn't recommend them as a beginner species.

That's fine. But, just so it's clear, that didn't happen here. From what I can see the OP has experience with at least two species of chameleons and a number of other reptile species. I would imagine Kevin had only had panthers and veileds when he got his Meller's, perhaps even just one of those species? I think a Meller's would make a far, far better choice for a number of reasons, for the OP than holding out for a pair of Parson's he thinks he'll be able to breed.

 

[summoner12]

Why not? Any species of chameleon requires a good deal of knowledge to provide proper care. Captive hatched Meller's are available at least every couple of years, are relatively easy to care for when so, imo have more interesting behaviors, and most importantly are sourced from legally exported animals. If somebody wants a big, impressive chameleon, why shouldn't a captive-hatched Meller's be recommended? I wouldn't recommend anyone get any chameleon without being prepared to properly research and provide the care for them. Believe it or not, even beginners can have success with species other than veileds and panthers when they do their homework.



Nobody ever said anything about taking any species of chameleon lightly. But, regardless, for you to get those 7 Meller's nobody had to smuggle them, or their parents, out of East Africa, against international laws designed to protect them from going extinct in the wild. That's the point.

I agree with your point about going with a melleri instead of a parsoni because it is legal and in general terms.... just as impressive (size wise and care required). I just don't want to see people jumping at WC melleri and making them head down the same road as the personi. I am sure it will happen... but I'd rather not see it happen. Now don't get me wrong im not saying 'keep trying to get parsoni instead of going with a melleri'... I am just saying be informed with either before deciding on what road to take.

I keep melleri because they are awesome charectors and very rewarding. I love spending time with them. My GF and I talk about what our melleri are up to more than anything else lol... maybe we're just weird but we enjoy them very much.

I hope that soon I can provide CBB melleri so people don't have to fuel the WC trade. I imagine panthers and veileds aren't imported in great numbers because there is such a large captive bred supply to the market? Maybe I am naive?

 

[summoner12]

That's fine. But, just so it's clear, that didn't happen here. From what I can see the OP has experience with at least two species of chameleons and a number of other reptile species. I would imagine Kevin had only had panthers and veileds when he got his Meller's, perhaps even just one of those species? I think a Meller's would make a far, far better choice for a number of reasons, for the OP than holding out for a pair of Parson's he thinks he'll be able to breed.

I got my first melleri from Mike Monge at the SD show two years ago... (or... maybe 18 months?) Pat was my first melleri, he was CH. Now.. at the time I had kept two species.... veiled and panthers.. but the panther was short lived. My panther was a victim of the 10.0 CFL... so my time with him was short. So yes, my experience was limited. Are CH melleri easier than WC? hell freakin yeah!

WC animals are difficult for anyone, at times. They can come in with all sorts of stuff you can't either know about or even provide a treatment for.

So when working with WC you have to remember your gonna lose some. I think it is better to deal with CBB animals for this reason, but it also helps keep the wild, wild.

 

[Kent67]

I hope that soon I can provide CBB melleri so people don't have to fuel the WC trade. I imagine panthers and veileds aren't imported in great numbers because there is such a large captive bred supply to the market? Maybe I am naive?

And, you know what? I believe the next person we're going to see posting about fertile eggs and then hatchling Meller's is going to be you. But, you're just not going to be able to even put a dent in the wc trade of thousands of Meller's per year with a few clutches here and there.

Panther chameleons have an annual quota of 2,000 animals per year from Madagascar. Most years (i.e. not in a bad recession) that 2,000 head quota is used up within the first 4 or 5 months of the year and then no more come in until the next year's permits are issued. There is still a very high demand. I believe wc veileds are not brought in but rarely because of a.) political reasons and the issues involved with getting animals out of Yemen and b.) there's not as much demand for wild-caught when the captive population is producing so many babies with wholesale prices of $15-20.

 

[summoner12]

I guess saving the planet is just a wet dream.

 

[summoner12]

And, you know what? I believe the next person we're going to see posting about fertile eggs and then hatchling Meller's is going to be you. But, you're just not going to be able to even put a dent in the wc trade of thousands of Meller's per year with a few clutches here and there.

Panther chameleons have an annual quota of 2,000 animals per year from Madagascar. Most years (i.e. not in a bad recession) that 2,000 head quota is used up within the first 4 or 5 months of the year and then no more come in until the next year's permits are issued. There is still a very high demand. I believe wc veileds are not brought in but rarely because of a.) political reasons and the issues involved with getting animals out of Yemen and b.) there's not as much demand for wild-caught when the captive population is producing so many babies with wholesale prices of $15-20.

I am not naive enough to think single handedly I can stop the WC melleri trade. Even as you pointed out the panther imports run dry, and there is a huge supply of them here in the US. Do those 2000 exports come here? or is that for the entire world to share? If it's for the whole world... it's no wonder the supply dries up so fast.

 

[Kent67]

That's 2,000 per year allowed out of Madagascar, regardless of destination. For comparison sake, Tanzania had a quota of 3,000 WC Meller's and Mozambique 1,000 last year. I think they may come from other countries occasionally as well?