Parsons questions

[Fidel]

But until you are in a position to be tempted by these potentially ethically challenged fruits - you really can't speak honestly. Surely, it is easy to denounce them if you could never afford them! But if you could.... the temptation is pretty great, I admit.

Well said Eric. If Parsonii were $300 we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

I think the only people who can talk are the ones who are actually out in the field doing something to save a species, not just talking about it on the internet. People who buy Parsonii are well aware of the ramifications, and you aren't going to change their minds by shaking your finger at them.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

However, profitability is certainly what drives the trade in parsonii, the smuggling, false documentation, etc. If it tarnishes those few animals that may actually trace back to mid-90's stock, then that is unfortunate. And the number of animals currently available for sale that trace back to legitimate pre-export-ban is ........

thats what i was thinking, if its a question of ethics even if they were cbb and not just ch, where did the dam and sire come from?

if said breeder is producing cbb imho they most likely have been working with them since before the ban, and can produce paperwork to show even the parents are ethically sound.....but even then, what are the chances the paperwork produced was truly for the parents of said cbb parsonii? and not some ethically sound parsonii from early on ( which most likely fell victim to inexperience long ago )

and at that ( this is for you kent ) whos to say even before the ban they were ethical? they were banned for a reason, did the exports before the ban have any less affect then the post ban exports???

 

[Chameleon Company]

Originally Posted by Eric Adrignola
But until you are in a position to be tempted by these potentially ethically challenged fruits - you really can't speak honestly. Surely, it is easy to denounce them if you could never afford them! But if you could.... the temptation is pretty great, I admit.

Couldn't disagree more. First off, is there an assumption being made here that the posters who note valid ethical concerns could not buy one if they wanted to ? Or just that they might see it as a foolish or unethical expenditure, which would therefore seem to preserve their qualifications to comment .

Secondly, such a notion would mean that you cannot have an honest opinion about the unethical trade of a species unless you could first experience the temptation to buy one ? So ethics have a cost quotient that must first be met ?

Sorry, but that logic escapes many. To use it as a basis to question an opinion as honest or not is BS ..... IMMHO.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

No Jim, you missed my point. I'm not talking about the ethics.

I probably should have worded it better, but my post was not directed at anyone on this forum, nor was it directed at the person saying it's wrong or right.
The intention was not to say they are being DIShonest.

I've seen many people on many discussions on this topic lay into people who buy these animals. "How dare you do this", "What you are doing is WRONG!", "If I ever had the money - I would certainly NOT buy these animals!!! How can you sleep at night?!?!"

Those people, many of them well-intentioned, of course, are not in the same situation as the people buying the animals. And I didn't mean a purely financial standpoint.

I've worked wiht chameleons half my life - 15 years. Parsonii were never my favorite. I always loved melleri, personally. However, I saw people fall in love with the species, and try to obtain healthy animals when they were still imported. Many tried, many just were not in a position to give them the space and requirements they needed.

Now, they have the space, the time, the money and the knowledge (well, it's better than it was in 1990, anyway.).

To someone who has dreamed of keeping these animals for a long time. Someone who CAN do it, and has dedicated so much to it, well, the decision is not based solely on the right and wrong of it. It's easy to say you "would never buy one of these animals" when you are 17 years old, and are wondering if the Lib arts college you're going to will allow you to keep a chameleon in your dorm.

Right or wrong, that's not my topic. I can easily understand the mindset that would justify the keeping of these animals. Is it for magical environmental conservation species propagation, preservation and reintroduction into the wild? Hell no.

It's personal, it's desire, it's what they want. Can they get in legal trouble? If not, then the only thing keeping these people from what may be a life-long dream is an ethical issue. It's easy to see the issue as black and white when you don't have any other factors influencing your decision. Some people see black, others see white - but the people thinking gray have to choose one or the other.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Just because you haven't done it doesn't mean it can't be done and isn't being done. Step back and look at this, the people that really are working with these animals and doing it successfully would have no reason to talk because all they get grief and told, "prove the grandparents are from pre 1994." They have paperwork and pictures of eggs and breeding but still the people who have never even attempted to work with these animals say it cannot be done. Yes there have been smuggled animals and I do not support that, but just because some people smuggle some out doesn't mean that ever one ever has been smuggled. Remember these are thought to live 20 years and won't even breed until 3 years old...so who is to say that the pictures of the breeding, the eggs, and the hatching are not accurate.

Chris

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Well said Eric. If Parsonii were $300 we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

I think the only people who can talk are the ones who are actually out in the field doing something to save a species, not just talking about it on the internet. People who buy Parsonii are well aware of the ramifications, and you aren't going to change their minds by shaking your finger at them.

I think you get what I was going at, Fidel. Although, I did not intend to question their honesty. "Honest opinion" was poor word usage on my part, as the intention was not to question motive or morality.

As far as moral or ethical reasoning, anyone's got a valid opinion.

People want parsonii. Some just want them because they're parsonii. Others have been working with them or studying them for decades.
Some people don't see the "value" in a parsonii the same way as other people. Really, if I had been into parsonii the same way I was into melleri, the animals would be worth so much to me, that I MAY(hypothetically) be willing to:

1) Pay a lot more
2) Wait for them to become available
3) Go far out of my way for them
4) do anything to get them as long as I am not at risk of legal troubles
5) Put ethical concerns on hold - after all, if I'm willing to pay $1500.00 or more for a LIZARD, chances are the possibility that the animals are ethically sound and kosher(figuratively speaking, I'm sure reptiles are not kosher...) becomes weighed more heavily against the possibility that they may be of illegal origin.

Really, THOUSANDS for a lizard. That's a crazy amount of money. People who want them so much they will pay thousands of dollars... they really really want them. They want them so much that it is just impossible for someone not in their shoes to fully understand.

I love chameleons as much as anybody - but I am in no way going to pay $1000.00 plus for a lizard.

Funny thing is in the 90's, before we moved from NJ, my friend Pete called me to ask if I wanted a pair of parsonii. He had a death in his family, burned himself out, and wanted to just start his life again. Just threw out all the eggs he had (including a clutch of C.minor), sold everything off.

He said that they were getting ready to close Madagascar, and these parsonii (which were in his care for about 6 months, I think) were probably amongst the last legal WC parsonii in the US. He wanted $200.00. Pretty sure he sold them eventually. I tried to get him buyers - nobody wanted them. Nobody. I posted about them on the Prodigy Chameleon forums (or was it the early AOL chameleon forums - I don't' remember), but no interest.

In retrospect, I should have bought them and sold them off myself.

 

[Pams Chams]

Remember these are thought to live 20 years and won't even breed until 3 years old...so who is to say that the pictures of the breeding, the eggs, and the hatching are not accurate.

Chris[/QUOTE]

Thank you Chris for stating the time process of this. The breeding facility you have privy to and the one I know of do not necessarily want their pics all over the web because of a number of factors, mostly privacy but they do exist. Here is another can of worms to open. Most endangered species on some level are being worked with to pro long their existence. Unless their are experienced people out their willing to for go ALL THE YEARS and money it takes to reproduce parsons my hats off to them. As stated these are not cheap Chameleons to work with and the ones that are able to do it in my opinion do it with great cation that they will be successful in prolonging the species.

 

[Kent67]

and at that ( this is for you kent ) whos to say even before the ban they were ethical? they were banned for a reason, did the exports before the ban have any less affect then the post ban exports???

No one. I'll be the first to admit the pre-suspension "open-door" thing was almost a disaster for many of these species. They were not banned; trade was suspended pending proof that allowing them out would not be detrimental to the survival of the species. What we have now are animals being poached from National Reserves and Parks (easiest places to find them) to be sent overseas, again in an unchecked manner.

What I would like, and have always said, is for a limited number of individuals to be legally allowed out under CITES quotas, just like the 4 Furcifer species, but with lower numbers.

At any rate. I've recently had the source of these animals confirmed for me and don't feel the need to discuss anything else here. Happy herping!

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

im a beleiver.......but

again....... yes they can live that long, and take longer than most to reach maturity.

truly legal males still being around i can believe.

truly legal females though, that would be tough. you have to figure loosing most females early on, esp if you are breeding.

IMHO you would have to breed most females and hold off breeding others.

sacrifice most females by attempting to breed to learn enough to even stand a chance at succeeding with the ones that you kept without breeding from your truly legal stock.

seems like pre ban females would be the first to go in a breeding project

 

[Titan]

[QUOTE Kent67 At any rate. I've recently had the source of these animals confirmed for me and don't feel the need to discuss anything else here. Happy herping![/QUOTE]

Hmm, with this statement said: Im assuming that with his new found findings of the origin of these animals, this new knowledge, has closed Kent67's talks on this subject!! Wow, It would be of my opinion that he was provided & proved these are Captive Hatched with the proper background and papers?? Thats the way I took this statement.

 

[Chuck G]

I knew a guy that said he was sleeping with his female Parsonii.
She was 5 years old so she was mature enough but unethical? You decide.
He did say all the paperwork was in order.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

last time i tell you a secret chuck.....by the way chuck still sucks his thumb


for some reason i trusted chris about these, and kents comment just backs it up. does the breeder have a bat cave???

not but seriously what country is the breeder from?

so a legit breeder is not only succeeding? but to the point where they are selling offspring? that has to be pretty successful, high hate rates at least!

thats fantastic

 

[nick barta]

Parsons Politics!

My, oh My, what have I started? The Chameleon Forum does several things to benifit it's members, IMHO:
One is to inform and educate those inside the forum (and visitors) on issues regarding Chameleon Information (perhaps the main focus).
A second function is to create contacts of those with interests in the Forum subject.
A third purpose is to have a format where you can buy Chameleons and "things" related to Chameleons.
A fourth, and valuable service the Forum offers, is the platform to discuss various topics and issues.

When I posted the original questions, it was (and is) to generate discussion, and it has surely succeeded! I too want to hear various opinions, and learn more myself about this Chameleon world. For Chris and Pam, I have no problem with you buying and selling Parsons; nor do I think or mean to imply you are doing ANYTHING shadey. Hopefully the worlds largest chameleon will benifit from the breeders you are working with.

Nick Barta

 

[Chuck G]

My, oh My, what have I started? The Chameleon Forum does several things to benifit it's members, IMHO:
One is to inform and educate those inside the forum (and visitors) on issues regarding Chameleon Information (perhaps the main focus).
A second function is to create contacts of those with interests in the Forum subject.
A third purpose is to have a format where you can buy Chameleons and "things" related to Chameleons.
A fourth, and valuable service the Forum offers, is the platform to discuss various topics and issues.

When I posted the original questions, it was (and is) to generate discussion, and it has surely succeeded! I too want to hear various opinions, and learn more myself about this Chameleon world. For Chris and Pam, I have no problem with you buying and selling Parsons; nor do I think or mean to imply you are doing ANYTHING shadey. Hopefully the worlds largest chameleon will benifit from the breeders you are working with.

Nick Barta

Its okay Nick, Hopefully I speak for most of us and that we are all friends and can go out and have a beer and hornworm and still have different opinions on chameleons. You had no idea! Search the forums and you will find similar posts.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

yeah this one went pretty well, no flames

 

[Titan]

Hopefully the worlds largest chameleon will benifit from the breeders you are working with.

Nick Barta

This is the point, Lets hope through the expense of owning some of these Chameleons, that the ones that can obtain them, will be the ones dedicated to the future and world success of these animals.
I do not feel the typical hobbyist would desire them just for pets. It would be my imagination that those pursuing and obtaining them today, are most likely of the variety that can possibly continue their future here, and learn from what we have not learned from, to date. That is the success in continual breeding of a difficult and hard to obtain species.
Be It a rare Parsons, or a rare pygmy! I give many regards to those that find the ways to successful breedings. And have dedicated lots of time and money just to arrive at this Hopefully! The Chameleons of the world may benifit greatly form this, as thier homeland and natural environments decline!

 

[Kent67]

Hmm, with this statement said: Im assuming that with his new found findings of the origin of these animals, this new knowledge, has closed Kent67's talks on this subject!! Wow, It would be of my opinion that he was provided & proved these are Captive Hatched with the proper background and papers?? Thats the way I took this statement.

Yeah, I guess I could've made that more clear. I was not provided with anything that makes me think they are captive bred and born (captive hatched would still be "illegal".) I decided to quit posting on this thread because a number of the people who keep and sell Parson's chameleons are friends of mine. Like Chuck said, I hope the discussions stay friendly and that we'd all be able to have a beer in person. I may not agree with some people's decisions, but the last thing I want is to hurt friends or their businesses. What I would like is to change to community's perception on the issue. With no demand, there's no smuggling.

 

[summoner12]

Going off of what people have been saying about these animals being kept in captivity to help with continual growth... in our knowledge of the species and growth of the number in captivity. I think it is the responsibility of the importer/seller to make sure the person purchasing these animals are going to actually be capable of some success. With an animal that seems so sensitive I would be very selective in who I sold to. I am not implying anyone selling them isn't selective.

My personal feeling is that the purchaser needs to show some sort of shared interest in the continuation of the species. I would hate to see a Parsoni in a living room cage made of plastic with kids running around.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Actually, I saw one like that, and it was doing well. A guy I knew in NJ owned a reptile store, and picked up a big male parsons for $50 at the wolesalers. I helped him acclimate it, get it eating, wormed it, etc.

Some lady bought it for $200 from him along with a tiny wooden cage, maybe 3' wide, 2' high. I was upset at him, but he was just in it for the money.

This woman had neer kept reptiles, only birds. She kept him in her livng room/sun room, and let him roam free during the day, caged him at night. Last I heard, a few years after I left NJ, he was still alove - after about 3-4 years. The parsonii would alwys go back to his little wooden cage at night.

She had no clue.

Another thing that factors into people's decision to buy these animals: It's similar to rescuing an animal from a pet store. Kinda. You know you're contributing to a business you do not want to contribute, but you feel you may save that one animal. You may. But you also pay the pet store, their wholsale supplier, importer and exporter...

When you see parsonii, even ones you know are not fully wholesome, you see THOSE animals, right there - you don't see the background, the history - just thses animals, right here, right now, and you can do something to give THEM a good home. If you don't, someone will, and they might kill'em...