Parsons questions

[Kent67]

I believe that about 99% of all Parson's in the US are illegally smuggled (kent I even told you that), but after seeing what I have seen (in the breeders facility and in the shipment) I don't doubt that this breeders is legitimately breeding these animals successfully,

Fine, I don't doubt these animals are bred in captivity. I even think most of your animals look great and probably did hatch in captivity. When did he get his breeders, though? Prior to 1995? If not....you know how they were acquired. And paying them to continue doing so only encourages more smuggling.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Why is it violating copyright laws? Can he not get permission from the breeder? You would think that for breeding Parsons to be such an incredible feat in the chameleon world people would eager to show proof of their success, if they are really experiencing it.

Well, its a violation of copyright laws to use someone else's photos without there permission. If Chris did get the breeder's permission, he could post them but then not only would everyone know his contact but everyone would then be contacting his contact which Chris might not want and its very possible the breeder might not want either. You assume that the breeder has any desire to share photos of his facility, breeders, eggs, babies, etc., with everyone. Its one thing for a breeder to share this type of thing with a buyer and another to share it with the entire world. As suspicious as that may seem, a lot of people don't want to and parsonii keepers are notoriously secretive, always have been.

Chris

 

[jhappe]

Well, its a violation of copyright laws to use someone else's photos without there permission. If Chris did get the breeder's permission, he could post them but then not only would everyone know his contact but everyone would then be contacting his contact which Chris might not want and its very possible the breeder might not want either. You assume that the breeder has any desire to share photos of his facility, breeders, eggs, babies, etc., with everyone. Its one thing for a breeder to share this type of thing with a buyer and another to share it with the entire world. As suspicious as that may seem, a lot of people don't want to and parsonii keepers are notoriously secretive, always have been.

Chris

How can a picture of a Chameleon, it's eggs, etc. give away the breeder's identity? I will agree, the whole business does seem a bit suspicious. Giving proof of such an accomplishment would seem to be an excellent business plan dont you think?

 

[Chris Anderson]

How can a picture of a Chameleon, it's eggs, etc. give away the breeder's identity? I will agree, the whole business does seem a bit suspicious. Giving proof of such an accomplishment would seem to be an excellent business plan dont you think?

By the breeder agreeing to let Chris post his photos without credit, the breeder would basically be giving up his rights to the photos, something few are willing to do, especially if they have any interest in using the photos for anything in the future. As a result, the photos would likely have credit to the breeder which would open up the issues I brought up previously. Again, you assume that everyone wants the attention associated with proving such an accomplishment. Not everyone does and not everyone cares what the majority of the chameleon community thinks. For it to be a good business plan, you assume that he has difficulty selling the parsonii he has available or that he produces numbers that would require him to need to advertise. Again, as suspicious as anyone may think it is, not everyone wants the publicity and attention that would result from posting these photos publicly but they may also not want to lose their rights to photos they do have. Suspicious does not equal illegal.

Chris

 

[summoner12]

This came to mind while reading....

....but if anyone of these skeptics opened the box and saw what I saw,........

 

[Chuck G]

Great Pulp Fiction pic! I would rather see this than the pointless blather about Parsonii. People can and will obtain them. paperwork or not.People will have to decide for themselves whether it is ethically or moraly right. People that usually judge others are using illegal drugs,cheating on taxes,cheating on their wives,buying bootleg movies and music,kicking kittens,etc. You get the idea.

 

[Rocky]

kicking kittens

hey, i kick kittens, but i will never stoop down and buy illegally imported animals!

 

[jhappe]

By the breeder agreeing to let Chris post his photos without credit, the breeder would basically be giving up his rights to the photos, something few are willing to do, especially if they have any interest in using the photos for anything in the future. As a result, the photos would likely have credit to the breeder which would open up the issues I brought up previously. Again, you assume that everyone wants the attention associated with proving such an accomplishment. Not everyone does and not everyone cares what the majority of the chameleon community thinks. For it to be a good business plan, you assume that he has difficulty selling the parsonii he has available or that he produces numbers that would require him to need to advertise. Again, as suspicious as anyone may think it is, not everyone wants the publicity and attention that would result from posting these photos publicly but they may also not want to lose their rights to photos they do have. Suspicious does not equal illegal.

Chris

That is a good point. I suppose that selling Parson's doesnt require much advertisement. Youre right, suspicious does not equal illegal, and I never said that I thought whoever sold the chameleons was doing it illegally i just find the subject interesting and wanted to pick the brains of some people who seem to know alot about it. I still dont quite understand why the release of photos would be so detremental to the breeder. If they seek to stay off the radar whats wrong with giving up the rights to the pictures when they have no problem finding buyers for animals? Whats the difference in sharing pictures of Parson's and Panthers? I guess I really just dont get all of the covertness. Maybe they could just give rights to CleanLine seeing as they already know the breeder and are advertising their product? Do you have a personal opinion on why exactly they wouldnt want to share?

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

As someone who just got their first chameleon, I am a long way away from buying a Parson's.

But second guessing a properly CITES papered animal, legal according to US F&W is not a hobbyist's job. Let's leave it to Law Enforcement.....

And people may laugh, but Indonesias' laws have just as much international validity as the U.S.'s. If the Parson's are legal under their laws, and this passes muster with US F&W, they are just as legal as F100 Panthers and no one should feel guilty about buying one.

 

[Titan]

I'm not sure why so many here are so positive these are Illegally obtained animals? and others believe truly CH is a possibility. Im not sure of what side of the fence I'm on with this topic. I would like the skeptics, I guess to fund a trip over there to find out for us all what is the truth.
I feel Parson success in actual hatching is being missed by most all, But I do believe it is possible for sure! We, or at least most of us just have not found the solutions, BUT it is out there!! And possibly some have already stumbled on to something.
I do feel so many Chameleon owners (which could be a great thing for some), are all regimented into doing exactly as they have read, reserched or told. which may be the reason no one here is successful, as they are still trying to do what others have already failed to do? But for some leading the reserch and technology are undoubtably out on there own, and will find the equation for successful Parsons breeding on a regular occurance.
One book with all these hard found situations to succesfull Breeding of Parsons will net that one well learned and successful individual or group big $$$, So why would a person or persons that have hatched a clutch or two, not want to be somewhat secretive as of yet, or untill they have it down well enough to break it out to the Public?

 

[Titan]

I also Agree with Loyd!!

 

[summoner12]

And people may laugh, but Indonesias' laws have just as much international validity as the U.S.'s. If the Parson's are legal under their laws, and this passes muster with US F&W, they are just as legal as F100 Panthers and no one should feel guilty about buying one.

People here are not saying that Indonesia's certification isn't valid, just the methods used to obtain the credential.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I don't think many people trying to breed parsonii in the US are concerned with the profit of breeding them. As such, the profitability of the process is inconsequential.

They won't be bred in masses, sold in lots, or come "Free - with purchase of cage and starter-kit!" But they will be bred.

The animals manage to breed in the wild, they'll breed here as well. Most likely by people who can set them up, give them what they need, and ignore them most of the time.

Sooner or later, some person will screw up and stumble upon how to "do it".

 

[laurie]

its really somthing to sit and read the masters go back and forth with so much info and facts this is the reason i come to this forum thanks guys. its so refreshing to actually learn about chameleons rather then read posts about weird foods and stolen cars(no offense). I for one am glad you guys are here!!!!!!!

I couldn't have said it better my self! I will never own a parsonii, but the amount of knowledge available on this forum, even about a species like the parsonii, keeps me coming back day after day. I am in awe of some of you people and really appreciate how willing you are to share that knowledge with the rest of us. I even think the differencing opinions are a learning experience.
MANY THANKS TO ALL!!!!!

 

[Kent67]

For the record, I realize that many of you have already made up your minds about whether or not you would support this kind of thing. However, I will continue to voice my opinions on smuggling any species of animal because it is important and because many of the new chameleon hobbyists don't have any idea about the international laws, CITES, and what these animals usually go through to get here. In my humble opinion, if you really care about the species, you'd not support taking them from Madagascar in an unchecked, illegal manner, with no quotas. Keeping them in our homes, where the odds of them reproducing are extremely slim is NOT how you protect any species from extinction.

And since I didn't see an answer anywhere, I'm still wondering....most breeders of panthers and veileds worldwide sell their offspring at between 2-3 months of age, some sooner. Given the worldwide demand and popularity of them, why would a breeder of Parson's wait until a clutch is close to a year old before selling them to an overseas customer?

 

[Kent67]

Kent - Obviously that would depend on if you couple provide documents from previously acquired legal specimens you owned which you could claim were the ancestors of your baby pandas.

Do you really think this is happening with all the Parson's coming from Indonesia? I'd bet that a couple hundred $ in cash would get you a signature saying an official there had seen your paperwork. Indonesia has always had a pretty dismal record when it comes to shipping out animals. For anyone familiar with the green tree python market you all know how many wild-caught animals make it to our markets here. Did you know they are ALL certified as F2 (second generation captive) or better before they leave Indonesia? And those are their own, nationally protected, native animals!

 

[Chris Anderson]

And since I didn't see an answer anywhere, I'm still wondering....most breeders of panthers and veileds worldwide sell their offspring at between 2-3 months of age, some sooner. Given the worldwide demand and popularity of them, why would a breeder of Parson's wait until a clutch is close to a year old before selling them to an overseas customer?

Kent,

My thoughts - Panthers and Veileds can be sexed at a very young age and if there is a question about the sex, you aren't investing thousands of dollars and years worth of time waiting to determine whether you purchased the sex you needed for your project. Parsonii are slow growing and take some time to definitively sex. With how restrictive their prices are, if one was looking to add a particular sex to your group, you wouldn't want to spend a fortune and waste a year before realizing you got the wrong sex and have to start over with another 3 month old of unknown sex.

Chris

 

[Chris Anderson]

Do you really think this is happening with all the Parson's coming from Indonesia? I'd bet that a couple hundred $ in cash would get you a signature saying an official there had seen your paperwork. Indonesia has always had a pretty dismal record when it comes to shipping out animals. For anyone familiar with the green tree python market you all know how many wild-caught animals make it to our markets here. Did you know they are ALL certified as F2 (second generation captive) or better before they leave Indonesia? And those are their own, nationally protected, native animals!

Having lived in Indonesia I will agree that corruption is a huge issue but at the same time, Indonesia has gotten railed by the CITES Secretariat and has started being more stringent on their requirements. While I don't doubt that the original WC CITES paperwork these farms have may not be for the animals they actually have or that they may not have original WC CITES paperwork for as many animals as they have, I do know that these breeding farms need to have such a paper trail for the Indonesian CITES authority to issue CB CITES documents. Again, there are loop holes for them to maneuver through as I've stated but proving the animals did not come from this legal stock is next to impossible.

Chris

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Legality and morality aside - Age of the animals is not a good indicator of status (unless it was a bunch of adults). If I were into parsonii, and had success breeding them, I probably would hold onto them for a while. Sex is important, as Chris states, for the investment is steep.

Profit or no profit - you pay $1000.00 for an animal, you'll want to know it if will work with your animals.

This topic always gets into the moral debate, it is interesting, I have to admit. It's a moral gray area - they are legal, as in nobody here will get in trouble. But the possibility they are the legal equivilant of blood diamonds means you face an ethical dilemma.

Do you support whatever THIS is, good or bad, for the chance you can keep - and possibly breed, these animals?
Or do you just stay away?

I will say, first of all, that I will make no final judgement on the situation, for the sole reason that I am not in a situation to buy the things. If I had the money (Ok, we got the money, it's the fact that my wife would WIDOW me if I even thought about it), I ight consider it.

But until you are in a position to be tempted by these potentially ethically challenged fruits - you really can't speak honestly. Surely, it is easy to denounce them if you could never afford them! But if you could.... the temptation is pretty great, I admit.

I'm happy with melleri. Great personalities, more predictable (never thought I 'd say that about melleri), good size, better decorations(my opinion), better fighters, and no ethical problems, Ardi's opinion not counting. (not my Ardi)

 

[Chameleon Company]

As such, the profitability of the process is inconsequential.

I have no doubt that many who buy parsonii have a twinkle of possible breeding in the back of their eye, however I would agree that such twinkle is inconsequential, for $ profit will not be had. Not when legal captive propagation is so fleeting, while the current circumvented process is so simple and profitable.

However, profitability is certainly what drives the trade in parsonii, the smuggling, false documentation, etc. If it tarnishes those few animals that may actually trace back to mid-90's stock, then that is unfortunate. And the number of animals currently available for sale that trace back to legitimate pre-export-ban is ........