Parsons Chameleon Available

[Klemins]

^^
Except, Pam is a reputable and established breeder/dealer, so it's a little different. As a result, she likely has the contacts necessary to obtain healthy animals in a legal manner. There are also less questions in regards to her motives for bringing in the animals and the ability to care for them once they've arrived.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

^^
Except, Pam is a reputable and established breeder/dealer, so it's a little different. As a result, she likely has the contacts necessary to obtain healthy animals in a legal manner. There are also less questions in regards to her motives for bringing in the animals and the ability to care for them once they've arrived.

oh ok its different.... im glad i know that now.........( sigh of relief ) thanks for clearing that up.


they would never make it into this country if they werent legal by the countries standards.

as for motives?? there are two motives, money and personal.

Money is a given, and she decided not to do it after more info, so personally her heart and head are in the right place..


please tell me exactly what motives would a reputable and established breeder/dealer have?

what about kaylas motives were questionable? outside of the obvious money ( which is a motive of anyone bringing them in????

 

[Chameleons Canada]

^^
Except, Pam is a reputable and established breeder/dealer, so it's a little different. As a result, she likely has the contacts necessary to obtain healthy animals in a legal manner. There are also less questions in regards to her motives for bringing in the animals and the ability to care for them once they've arrived.

Exactly, here comes the other side of the coin, if I am a buyer and I see someone like Pam posting this ad, I know the chances of getting it are high, but please note Pam specifies when talking about Parson's "I Might...", a good sign of someone speaking out from a real perspective.

Why is it that no senior members jumped on her for the ad? because they know she's serious, she has the contacts, the meanings and reputation to move forward.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

please, parsonii were available from a german forum member at market price plus $500 shipping... to buy them you did not need contacts, or knowledge, just money


chuck said it, acclimation is the key. if she had the space, and the money for the needed vet visits, she would have been able to find buyers and flip them before any long term care knowledge was needed.

If they got to her in decent condition and were acclimated and she had the money for vet visits, she could have pulled it off

 

[kenya]

please, parsonii were available from a german forum member at market price plus $500 shipping... to buy them you did not need contacts, or knowledge, just money


chuck said it, acclimation is the key. if she had the space, and the money for the needed vet visits, she would have been able to find buyers and flip them before any long term care knowledge was needed.

If they got to her in decent condition and were acclimated and she had the money for vet visits, she could have pulled it off

I am speaking as someone who knows Pam very well personally and has been to her facility multiple times. The Parsons you are talking about were her OWN Parsons. She imported a group with a friend and they were all sold before they even arrived. The two she considered selling were her own pair from the shipment and she was ONLY considering selling them to a home with prior experience with Parsons. If you want to talk to her about it, I know that she takes calls all the time concerning chameleons and her phone number is common knowledge. This is not a place to bash breeders, importers, or forum members.

Please keep your mouth shut if you don't know what you are talking about. Pam is one of the best breeders around and is legitimate and to insinuate that she is not is extremely insulting and in bad taste.

 

[Chameleons Canada]

please, parsonii were available from a german forum member at market price plus $500 shipping... to buy them you did not need contacts, or knowledge, just money

Trust me, is not just the money. Any how, anyone interested on my T-Rex??

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

I am speaking as someone who knows Pam very well personally and has been to her facility multiple times. The Parsons you are talking about were her OWN Parsons. She imported a group with a friend and they were all sold before they even arrived. The two she considered selling were her own pair from the shipment and she was ONLY considering selling them to a home with prior experience with Parsons. If you want to talk to her about it, I know that she takes calls all the time concerning chameleons and her phone number is common knowledge. This is not a place to bash breeders, importers, or forum members.

Please keep your mouth shut if you don't know what you are talking about. Pam is one of the best breeders around and is legitimate and to insinuate that she is not is extremely insulting and in bad taste.

who was bad mouthing? i guess my sarcasm went over your head....

let me state very clearly i was not bashing anyone. quite the obvious contrary she was used as a reference as to the public business practices of a reputable breeder........

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

Trust me, is not just the money. Any how, anyone interested on my T-Rex??

ok i trust you put me down for a reverse trio, i heard the females get bigger

 

[kenya]

who was bad mouthing? i guess my sarcasm went over your head....

let me state very clearly i was not bashing anyone. quite the obvious contrary she was used as a reference as to the public business practices of a reputable breeder........

I did miss your sarcasm, I guess. You may want to make it more obvious.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

I did miss your sarcasm, I guess. You may want to make it more obvious.

i prob should, but thats just not my style.... way to stick up for pam though...
but seriously anyone that kisses a parsons is reputable in my book

 

[Chris Anderson]

reyesjoshuacruz - I'm having a difficult time following what it is you're trying to indicate so if I'm misunderstanding you, forgive me.

Many of the C. parsonii that have been available over the last number of years have been imported from breeding farms in Indonesia, Thailand, etc. These animals have CITES paperwork associated with them and are currently regarded by the US FWS as legal animals. That being said, the true, underlying legality of these CITES documents and the animals they are associated with is extremely controversial as can be seen by quickly searching the forums. There is much debate as to whether or not the breeders these farms have were truly legally obtained prior to the CITES ban on their export from Madagascar. There is similar debate as to whether or not these offspring that are being shipped out are actually the result of breeding events at these farms, if the eggs were laid at these farms or if gravid females or clutches of eggs were smuggled out of Madagascar. This controversy is well known and recognized by the US FWS and they keep a very close eye on the importation of this species and other similar Malagasy chameleon species from these same origins. At any time, the US FWS could decide not to recognize the CITES documents associated with a shipment of C. parsonii because they doubt their legal CB origin, the legal origin of the founder animals, etc. Every time a group of C. parsonii are imported, a great deal of debate and uproar occurs and this is particularly true when it is done recklessly. This typically does not go by unseen by authorities

More and more, the reptile industry is being seen as a reckless and irresponsible community and this reputation is leading to increased efforts to inhibit and prohibit our activities. Reckless importation, poor breeding track records, high mortality rates and other factors have all been used as ammunition for such efforts. By continuing to behave in this manner, we are going to end up having heavy restrictions in place before long.

The notion that a highly inexperienced individual without sales contacts is going to be able to bring in a decent group of C. parsonii and move them without the need to have to house and care for them long term is very naive. Out of a group brought in about a month ago, all the animals are still not sold. Most of those animals that have sold were sold before the shipment was sent through contacts. The group of individuals who can and will purchase these animals is small and even the few animals left from that shipment have not moved quickly. This puts the importer/dealer in the position to have to deal with housing and caring for these animals which can be very demanding and challenging animals to acclimate, even for very experienced keepers. Bringing in a group of these animals without having the experience, contacts, etc., to deal with them is irresponsible and makes the entire community look bad.

Chris

 

[SSimsswiSS]

The group of individuals who can and will purchase these animals is small and even the few animals left from that shipment have not moved quickly. This puts the importer/dealer in the position to have to deal with housing and caring for these animals which can be very demanding and challenging animals to acclimate, even for very experienced keepers.
Chris

I feel I need to add, that I was contacted about a week and a half, after this last group came in with bad news. I was told that a few in this newly arrived group had expired. In the care of two different experienced keepers, with access to vet. assistance.
So, anyone who thinks it might be neat to have one, or see big dollar signs: ask yourself, do you have a few thousand dollars to lose over night?

 

[nick barta]

reyesjoshuacruz - I'm having a difficult time following what it is you're trying to indicate so if I'm misunderstanding you, forgive me.

Many of the C. parsonii that have been available over the last number of years have been imported from breeding farms in Indonesia, Thailand, etc. These animals have CITES paperwork associated with them and are currently regarded by the US FWS as legal animals. That being said, the true, underlying legality of these CITES documents and the animals they are associated with is extremely controversial as can be seen by quickly searching the forums. There is much debate as to whether or not the breeders these farms have were truly legally obtained prior to the CITES ban on their export from Madagascar. There is similar debate as to whether or not these offspring that are being shipped out are actually the result of breeding events at these farms, if the eggs were laid at these farms or if gravid females or clutches of eggs were smuggled out of Madagascar. This controversy is well known and recognized by the US FWS and they keep a very close eye on the importation of this species and other similar Malagasy chameleon species from these same origins. At any time, the US FWS could decide not to recognize the CITES documents associated with a shipment of C. parsonii because they doubt their legal CB origin, the legal origin of the founder animals, etc. Every time a group of C. parsonii are imported, a great deal of debate and uproar occurs and this is particularly true when it is done recklessly. This typically does not go by unseen by authorities

More and more, the reptile industry is being seen as a reckless and irresponsible community and this reputation is leading to increased efforts to inhibit and prohibit our activities. Reckless importation, poor breeding track records, high mortality rates and other factors have all been used as ammunition for such efforts. By continuing to behave in this manner, we are going to end up having heavy restrictions in place before long.

The notion that a highly inexperienced individual without sales contacts is going to be able to bring in a decent group of C. parsonii and move them without the need to have to house and care for them long term is very naive. Out of a group brought in about a month ago, all the animals are still not sold. Most of those animals that have sold were sold before the shipment was sent through contacts. The group of individuals who can and will purchase these animals is small and even the few animals left from that shipment have not moved quickly. This puts the importer/dealer in the position to have to deal with housing and caring for these animals which can be very demanding and challenging animals to acclimate, even for very experienced keepers. Bringing in a group of these animals without having the experience, contacts, etc., to deal with them is irresponsible and makes the entire community look bad.

Chris

I enjoy reading your posts on this and other Chameleon topics. Refreshing to see the depth of experience and comitment to the bigger picture. Keep on posting, it is good for all of us!

Nick

 

[Chuck G]

i prob should, but thats just not my style.... way to stick up for pam though...
but seriously anyone that kisses a parsons is reputable in my book

This adds nothing to this thread but.....
That Parson's she was kissing I bought from Pam a while back.
For the record,it hasn't been kissed since. As another breeder,I can certainly endorse Pam and her chameleons,even with all the smooching.

 

[Sporkthedork]

Sort of hi-jacking the thread

Reckless importation, poor breeding track records, high mortality rates and other factors have all been used as ammunition for such efforts. By continuing to behave in this manner, we are going to end up having heavy restrictions in place before long.

If (When) the non-native species ban falls apart, maybe the reptile community should move towards addressing some of those. I know dogs and horses have some sort of breeding record (horse having one of the best ones I know), why don't we bring back the breeding track record. I saw a website that once had it, but it's not working anymore. We could probably use the same type of progam those online genealogies out there, but for reptiles instead of people.

 

[chamelisa]

Ccbtd

http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=68

 

[Sporkthedork]

That's the website I was talking about, but it doesn't work anymore. The domain name is for sale.