parsonii mouth rot?

[Twitchet]

Hi all, I bought a parsons 4 weeks ago, when i inspected him i asked whether the lips on the cham were o.k and was told yes they were, I've kept an eye on them, difficult as the cham is very shy and took 2 weeks to even begin to settle-he's in a densely planted house so even more difficult, I was lucky enough to catch a pic of him a minute ago with his mouth open, I'm concerned in seeing this- ulcers? - he looks fine with mouth closed but closed you can see either side he has a very small section of sort of loose lips. He's eating fine and with no apparent problems or distress.
Is this mouth rot? or is it an old ulcer from mouth rot that is cleared. I have a dilemma of trying to get him to the vet as he is so easily stressed. I don't want to handle him at all yet if not absolutely necessary as I think it will put back the progress of new surroundings completely. Thanks

 

[jannb]

That looks like some little chunks of lip are missing. Parsons are prone to mouth problems so I'd keep a close eye on it and any signs of it getting worse get him to the vet. If it gets infected the infection quickly moves into the bone.

 

[Twitchet]

Hi Jann, I was aware about mouth problems and that's why I checked and asked before buying, but maybe not well enough, the patches are on the lips not the actual jaw, the lips kind of flare out a little. I've just spoken to the exotic vet so are poised to make a journey- it will stress him so much though. Thanks ever so much for the reply. much appreciated.

 

[Blang]

If the back legs on your bugs have spikes could they be irritating his lips on either side when he's chewing?

 

[Action Jackson]

Parson's often get crusty spots on their lips, I think it usually from stuck shed or bug guts. They can also sustain irritation or injury from some of the bigger prey items we offer. It's important to keep an eye on their mouths and remove that stuff when you notice it. I usually use a pair of tweezers or even my fingernail. It's very important to keep an eye on their mouths because as Jann said they are susceptible to mouth problems. It's best to preform monthly mouth inspections looking for sores and discolorations around the gums and teeth. Infections can move into the bone and can be difficult to treat if not caught in the early stages.

From the picture you posted it looks like something is just stuck on his lips. If you feel comfortable doing I personally would try to remove it, that way if your chameleons starts getting really stressed you can return him to his cage to relax and try again later. A trip to the vet may be way more stressful IMO.

 

[Twitchet]

Hi there-That's the curious thing- unless purely by chance- the patches are exactly symmetrical on his jaw- ulcers could form anywhere along the jaw line- as you say it's like something has rubbed equally on both sides- he was fed mainly crickets I think before and now he's been on a variety of feeders inc locusts, i think they would only add up to 30% of the food types-
Funnily enough 99% i trim the legs off the locusts so I dont think it's that- I even nip the mandibles out of crickets and locusts, i didn't this time would you believe I was so lucky to get him in the right position to take a photo of the mouth- he's so shy it would probably kill him to get him out and look so I'm trying to balance observation and privacy for him. I've just registered with an excellent exotics vet so I might just have to risk it, box him up and take him for a check up. Thanks

 

[Twitchet]

Hi Action Jackson, thanks for that- He hasnt shed since I've had him, he had been in quite an out of the way viv so is very shy, he's in my reptile room now- it's quite and only i go in there- I've been introducing my presence to him carefully but still hides around the back of sticks etc, he's improving, I can walk past him without him doing that 75% of the time now- but thats' as far as I've got so being about to put my hand anywhere near him is a very long way off- the other chameleons I have are hand tame and that's great- I can perform all checks over all of their body without any stress to them or me, but he's a really different case. He's fed calciworms-nice and small, small crickets,and 20-30 mm dubia, and locusts, this was the largest I had offered- I usually have medium ones. Is there anything else I can offer or a food type that I should favour? Maybe just snack sized calci worms for a while and lay off the larger foods? He's drinking well.
I did ask the owner if it had any mouth problems as I had read they are susceptible to that and he said no. It's very curious that the marks on on either side. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Chachi]

In the photos there isnt any inflamation. If there was a current sore wouldnt there be redness and it look more angry? Jann, do you think it could it be old places that were serious unough to cause scarring? AJ Im looking at her photos on my phone but to me it looks more like the absence of flesh instead of the presence of something, but i only have a tiny phone to examine.
Twitch, I have seen mouth rot and it looks a lot angrier and sore than this. His lips kinda do that Angelina Jolie thing so maybe he has hurt himself at one time? I wish i knew more about Parsons

 

[Twitchet]

Whenever I see a pic of Angelina Jolie i'll think of a parsons- lol ! !
Thanks for the info- it's definatley not red and not swollen either- so hoping that is all good news- thanks very much for the input. As I say the flare outs on the lips where 100% there the day of collection as I remarked on them so it's been like that for a month. thanks again

 

[Action Jackson]

In the photos there isnt any inflamation. If there was a current sore wouldnt there be redness and it look more angry? Jann, do you think it could it be old places that were serious unough to cause scarring? AJ Im looking at her photos on my phone but to me it looks more like the absence of flesh instead of the presence of something, but i only have a tiny phone to examine.
Twitch, I have seen mouth rot and it looks a lot angrier and sore than this. His lips kinda do that Angelina Jolie thing so maybe he has hurt himself at one time? I wish i knew more about Parsons

I have dealt with this same situation several times. When they are eating sometimes they get bug guts stuck on their lips and it dries there. If it isn't removed it can cause irritation and lead to infection. I don't really see any loss of flesh there.

 

[Action Jackson]

Hi Action Jackson, thanks for that- He hasnt shed since I've had him, he had been in quite an out of the way viv so is very shy, he's in my reptile room now- it's quite and only i go in there- I've been introducing my presence to him carefully but still hides around the back of sticks etc, he's improving, I can walk past him without him doing that 75% of the time now- but thats' as far as I've got so being about to put my hand anywhere near him is a very long way off- the other chameleons I have are hand tame and that's great- I can perform all checks over all of their body without any stress to them or me, but he's a really different case. He's fed calciworms-nice and small, small crickets,and 20-30 mm dubia, and locusts, this was the largest I had offered- I usually have medium ones. Is there anything else I can offer or a food type that I should favour? Maybe just snack sized calci worms for a while and lay off the larger foods? He's drinking well.
I did ask the owner if it had any mouth problems as I had read they are susceptible to that and he said no. It's very curious that the marks on on either side. Thanks again for the help.

I understand the shy Parson's thing. I have a male now who is been very shy lately, so shy he's been off his food for a couple weeks with the excepting of eating a hopper yesterday. Parson's are pretty tough and resilient. I don't stress much anymore when they go off food or go though shy phases for mine it seems they usually just want some new food item, are ajusting to a new cage or can see something that bothers them.

 

[Twitchet]

Yes, he's very shy- lived out of the way of much human traffic- he is cb though, but now he moved to a new viv and is in my eye line so there's been big changes in his life, I do see an improvement though, he took 2 weeks of not wanting to eat much, then all of a sudden gave in and now I dont worry about him losing condition and he eats regularly, if he skips a day i know the next day he'll eat- he's taking food from forceps with me in his view so thats a great leap forward.. Thanks

 

[Garrett]

This is another one of those parson's specific problems that's really common.
My personal opinion is that it's an infection, but localized and not overly aggressive, like gingivitis. These guys have really soft skin, and are not very tolerant to any kind of bacteria loads so any little scrape or abrasion, stuck food etc. on the lips can start developing these marks.
Both sides of the mouth in the same place is the most common location, that's where the insect gets crushed against the lips when they chew. Usually it doesn't progress past this stage, but they can develop stomatitis that involves the gums, teeth and jaw so it's a good idea to stay on top of it. I've been able to completely cure this by brushing their lips twice daily with a very soft toothbrush and betadine. Look for any stuck skin or flaps that move when you brush, a lot of times these are encapsulated and need to be debrided a bit. Don't be afraid if they bleed a little, normal. It takes a few weeks of this routine, these guys are really slow healers.
I'm not sure if there's a way to completely prevent this, I think feeder cleanliness and overall health is much more important in prevention than hard shells or leg spines on insects. I never bother removing parts of bugs before feeding and almost never see this in my own animals. I "have" seen this consistently with animals that came to me from someone else, so they must have been doing something differently, or they weren't kept in ideal conditions (parsonii margin of error is about +/-5%)
Your guy looks great otherwise, I don't think this requires a vet visit.
I would double check the inside of the mouth for any redness or sores just to be safe.

 

[Twitchet]

Hi there Garrett, I'm really pleased with your view on it, that would make extra sense why the marks are evenly matched on both sides of the mouth, I personally keep my feeders clean, I was thinking today how much time it takes to care for the bugs, forget the chameleons! I keep my crickets in cricket keepers and as they are dirty little things anyway I have a series of cages I transfer them to, dubias are clean and all are very well hydrated and fed lots of gutloading plants. All the other types are kept well too. I'm just starting to raise silkworms, act of faith as I haven't tried them on the parsonii, no one else will touch them here, if they don't like them either I'll have about 500 to rehome!
I can manage mouth inspections with everyone except him! He is untouchable / unviewable at the moment, I'm doing my best to get him used to me but I must take it really slow with him, he's like a wild animal but he is CB, he hides and freezes, puts his foot up to say back off but he's changing slowly but as for being able to touch or check his mouth it isn't going to be possible , not yet anyway.
I was very lucky to get that picture, he's usually hidden way behind a leaf, do you think I should remove some of his plants, he has a lot and I arranged it all so he had lots of privacy and seclusion but could that work against his and my favour, maybe he relies on that too much and I should open it all up a bit and get him out and about more? Or let him take it at his speed?
Hoping you saw my post in general photo- parsons and panther in u.k sun? Check out those very ffiinnee branches!!
Left a message for you! Her pink foot is o.k and she's getting lots of exercise.
I'm delighted you feel there's no vet visit yet, I registered with the exotics vet here earlier and won't hesitate to take him but dread it for the stress he will go through. Maybe I'll just have to be tough. Cheers

 

[Chachi]

I have dealt with this same situation several times. When they are eating sometimes they get bug guts stuck on their lips and it dries there. If it isn't removed it can cause irritation and lead to infection. I don't really see any loss of flesh there.

I have dealt with this same situation several times. When they are eating sometimes they get bug guts stuck on their lips and it dries there. If it isn't removed it can cause irritation and lead to infection. I don't really see any loss of flesh there.

Good. I cant see but you know how that is when it gets started. The stuff they eat sometimes is just filthy.

 

[Twitchet]

Hi Garrett, my betadine turned up this morning so can I check with you about using it.
You say brush the lips, should I apply to outside of lips, the part of the lip that is inside the mouth or further in on the gum line?
Will the beta dine taste horrible for him? Will it wash away when he has his showers or will it dissolve and will he swallow it?
How much are we taking about using? Just a size blob of a grain of rice on the end of a soft brush?
Should I use it twice a day before or after feeding?
Sorry for all the questions.
Should I as standard use it on the other one even though she doesn't have any problems at the moment?
Many thanks for your help.

 

[Twitchet]

Any advice? Have applied some but don't really know how often or how much.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Chlorahexadine would work also. Is use a Qtip and gently swap around the gym line, removing anything that looks like plaque and avoiding areas that appear to be open sores. Any open sores are cause for a vet visit and antibiotics, IMO. You could do the same with betadine, but I prefer to work with the chlorahexadine. It's useful for many husbandry and first aide instances, with reptiles. A gallon might run $60 and goes a LONG way.

 

[Twitchet]

Hi Drew-may call you Drew? Many thanks for that- I've searched for it- as I'm in the U.K and I've found it as a mouthwash
Corsodyl - Active Ingredient: Chlorhexidine Digluconate 0.2& w/v.
Other Ingredients: Ethanol 7% v/v, Macrogolglycerol Hydroxystearate, Sorbitol, Peppermint Oil and Water. Macrogolglycerol Hydroxystearate.
Not sure that's right as it contains alcohol too, I will look further for a topical gel or something that contains it. Many thanks for the info- good news is that he is totally unbothered by me applying paste to his gum line with a paint brush- just sits there. Very pleased as I thought it would stress him ( or me!)
Here's a picture just for you of Parsley having her drink - Pink foot getting better and check out that new chin !!! ( o.k it does still puff out a bit sometimes but that's normal)

 

[Garrett]

I dilute it in water and dip a soft toothbrush in the solution then dab it on a paper towel to remove the excess.
You need to brush the actual areas on the lips where the marks are, you can either roll the bristles behind the lips with the mouth closed and brush that way, or if you can get them to open their mouth it's much easier (I sometimes use a q-tip to open their mouths and put it towards the back like a horse bridle bit so they can't close their mouth.) Usually the marks will have a layer of thin skin over them encapsulating the infection. Sometimes the skin will come off and there will be bleeding, sometimes not. Just do it gently and try to clean them the best you can twice a day. Betadine tastes terrible but if you use it sparingly and don't get too much into the mouth they deal with it fine.