Panthers Cost
- Thread starter renzo0684
- Start date
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
I think the point Trace is getting to is that there are plenty of species that are just as colorful, arguably more impressive and are rarer, harder to breed and have higher moralities then panthers that cost a fraction of the price and are still difficult to sell as CB/CH specimens at those low prices. Obviously this has a lot to do with the demand, which is why panthers have a higher cost and these species have a lower cost. I agree with Trace that its unfortunate these other species are that under appreciated but I understand the basic supply and demand that is increasing the price on panthers.
Chris
Chris
ChromaChameleons
New Member
Chris:
I don't know how you extract the sentiment, that other rarer species are underpriced when Trace clearly stated....
"I'm not seeing any valid, justifiable reasons why pardalis are and always have been, overpriced. Anyone? Anyone? "
That is not stating other species are underpriced, its directed at Panther pricing.
I don't know how you extract the sentiment, that other rarer species are underpriced when Trace clearly stated....
"I'm not seeing any valid, justifiable reasons why pardalis are and always have been, overpriced. Anyone? Anyone? "
That is not stating other species are underpriced, its directed at Panther pricing.
Brandon
New Member
The seemingly high price of panthers can be seen as a reflection of the market for this species of chameleon trying to reach equilibrium. Whenever quantity supplied and quantity demanded are not in balance, the price will change to correct the imbalance. Changes in price also help create market efficiency, where consumer surplus (difference between maximum price willing to pay and actual price) and producer surplus (difference between minimum price accepted and price received) are maximized.
Perhaps also, panther demand is inelastic (demand is not that sensitive to changes in price). Thus, breeders can charge more and know that they will be able to sell most of their inventory.
I'm sure that there are other factors which lead to high market prices, but these are the ones that stood out most in my mind.
Perhaps also, panther demand is inelastic (demand is not that sensitive to changes in price). Thus, breeders can charge more and know that they will be able to sell most of their inventory.
I'm sure that there are other factors which lead to high market prices, but these are the ones that stood out most in my mind.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Harry,
I extract that sentiment because this is a topic that has been discussed many times in the past. Based on these pasts threads, its clear to me that her opinion on pardalis being over priced has a lot to do with the fact that species that are much more difficult to produce and just as attractive go for next to nothing while F. pardalis, which can be bred quite easily in comparison, is priced so high.
Chris
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In my region is difficult sale 3 months Ambilobe, Ambanja over $120.
Sometimes are "end show prices" as low as $80 if sellers are panicking.
I expect prices will drop in 1 year and something like $60 will be standard.
(You can buy 2 months veileds for $15 - this does not cover cost for sure).
Sometimes are "end show prices" as low as $80 if sellers are panicking.
I expect prices will drop in 1 year and something like $60 will be standard.
(You can buy 2 months veileds for $15 - this does not cover cost for sure).
ColorCham427
Avid Member
Whats just as attractive as a Panther? Thats just an opinion. Most opinions are towards Panthers being the most beautiful. I've never seen a chameleon look as pretty as a "Screaming Ambilobe Panther chameleon"...Again, thats just another opinion.
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
Now Brian!!!! Have you ever seen my veileds Luie & Camille?
https://www.chameleonforums.com/members/jannb-albums-pictures-luie-camille.html
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Brian,
Something being attractive is a subjective distinction. If you look in my initial post, you'll see I stated "there are plenty of species that are just as colorful, arguably more impressive". There are over 175 species of chameleon and many show spectacular colorations and displays in addition to adorning impressive features such as horns, crests, sails, enlarged scales, etc. Panthers are attractive but I would never consider them the most impressive chameleon. If you're asking what species I think are as attractive or more attractive then panthers, my list would be very long. Most of those species are much more difficult to breed then panthers, imported and obviously bred in lower numbers and still cost much less. To name a few species that would occur on my list (not even including species you can't get in the US): Rhampholeon spinosus, Rh. acuminatus, Furcifer lateralis, Kinyongia uthmoelleri, K. tenuis, K. xenorhina, Trioceros hoehnelii, T. incornutus, T. w. wiedersheimi, T. montium, T. cristatus, T. quadricornis gracilior, T. laterispinis, etc. If you want to look at species that are far more attractive but not necessarily available, the list is long but check out Bradypodion damaranum or a gravid female Furcifer minor to name two.
Chris
ChromaChameleons
New Member
Thanks Chris for clarifying what Trace, in your opinion, originally meant to say..... I made the wrong assumption. I assumed that it was just another Panther Breeder bash.
HarryO
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Shannen - You are correct, they do not come with a cheap price tag either. I would say that they are similarly priced to your average, captive bred high end panther chameleon though, despite the fact that they are much rarer (export quota of 24 F1 compared to 2000 WC every year) and much more difficult to breed. When you look at those numbers and factor in how many are bred every year on top of that, its somewhat surprising.
Harry - Obviously I can't speak for Trace but in the past she and I have seemed to have similar sentiments about the perceived value of many of these other chameleon species. Many of these species are not bred in captivity and will not be maintained in captivity if the export regulations change. This is because they are not valued by enough people for there to be a market. Its a shame and I can understand why people who put that effort in to other species could be disgusted with people about it.
Chris
ChromaChameleons
New Member
Raising Panthers, whether commercially or otherwise , does not detract from the voluntary efforts of enthusiasts that choose to pursue rarer chameleons.
I have kept or currently have Panthers, Usambara 3 horns, carpet majors, flapnecks, veileds and Fischer multis. I currently have all except the Usambara 3 horn. I agree with your point, that rarer chams are overlooked.
In fact , I just dug up 15 Fischer eggs today.
To state that rarer species are undervalued is an accurate statement.
To state that Panthers are overpriced, does not communicate that same argument.
And , honestly , I don't get the reference to being "disgusted with people about it. "
I have kept or currently have Panthers, Usambara 3 horns, carpet majors, flapnecks, veileds and Fischer multis. I currently have all except the Usambara 3 horn. I agree with your point, that rarer chams are overlooked.
In fact , I just dug up 15 Fischer eggs today.
To state that rarer species are undervalued is an accurate statement.
To state that Panthers are overpriced, does not communicate that same argument.
And , honestly , I don't get the reference to being "disgusted with people about it. "
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Ehh...I would say that the price panthers go for causes many people to put their efforts toward breeding them rather then other species. Obviously that is every individual's choice but I definitely would say that a lot fewer people choose to put the effort into rarer species then would if the prices of either were more in line with the effort and time that goes into producing each neonate.
Obviously the reason for that has to do with demand, and I understand that. I just think its a shame that a fraction of that effort isn't put into working with other species that are just as impressive.
Fair enough, I guess it depends on the context you put it in, really. I feel that the price of both (panthers and rarer species) is disproportionate to the effort and time that goes into producing and raising each CH/CB individual when you compare it to the price of the other.
Relax, I'm not attacking anyone, no need to get defensive. I'm simply saying that there is a lot to be disgusted about when you think about the efforts (or lack there of) that go into working with these less common species. The number that are imported compared to the number that are alive after a month, the number that are imported compared to the number that are bred, the "disposable" attitude associated with so many of these animals, just to name a few.
Chris
Trace
Captain Awesome
My apologies for not answering sooner. Every time Brad does a server change I'm seemingly the last one to get the new and improved version of the forums.
Chris is correct when he speaks for me. (Thank You Chris ) My comments were not meant as a dig against pardalis breeders or the species in general.
The prices of calyptratus have dropped drastically over the years; same can be said for a lot of common reptiles in the pet trade actually. (Cresties, Leos, Beardies, Corns, Balls, etc). Panther prices have not. They are bred in, maybe not the same number as Veileds annually, but it's a very close second and that number is growing drastically every year. They are not any more difficult or any more costly to raise up to selling age than calyptratus. Please explain the disparity.
If everyone was in it for the love and fascination of chameleons, then why is everyone worried about potential falling prices on their "so-called" investment grade Panthers?
Chris is correct when he speaks for me. (Thank You Chris
) My comments were not meant as a dig against pardalis breeders or the species in general. The prices of calyptratus have dropped drastically over the years; same can be said for a lot of common reptiles in the pet trade actually. (Cresties, Leos, Beardies, Corns, Balls, etc). Panther prices have not. They are bred in, maybe not the same number as Veileds annually, but it's a very close second and that number is growing drastically every year. They are not any more difficult or any more costly to raise up to selling age than calyptratus. Please explain the disparity.
If everyone was in it for the love and fascination of chameleons, then why is everyone worried about potential falling prices on their "so-called" investment grade Panthers?
ChromaChameleons
New Member
Love and fascination of chameleons and profiting from them are not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts.
I can think of a thousand easier ways to make a living.
Cost to raise Veileds and Panthers is not the same, IMO and experience.
I can think of a thousand easier ways to make a living.
Cost to raise Veileds and Panthers is not the same, IMO and experience.
tkilgour
Member
Mt kenya jacksons are a unique chameleon to have. F. lateralis is another neat chameleon w/ a wide range of color. I still really like panther chemeleons. Some of my Ambanjas, Ambilobes, and Nosy Falys have intense color, they are big, and they live a long time and they are my personal favs in my collection of many chameleons. This was a great thread to open as you can see many different views.
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