Oustalet Chameleon HELP NEEDED

[reptilematt]

Hello,


We have an 11 month oustalet's chameleon. She has been fine, eating regularly, drinking, and showing no signs of being ill. Today, I came home from work and she is frozen, eyes closed, on a lower branch - she has beautiful colors, hisses when I touch her, and will not open either eye....



What could be causing this sudden behavior?

Please helo!!!

 

[reptilematt]

She also is puffed up with her throat reddish in color...

 

[nightanole]

has she had eggs yets? shes due around a year. Is she digging at the bottom of the cage? Is she lumpy on the side?

 

[reptilematt]

More information:

Chameleon Info:
• Your Chameleon – Male/Female oustalet chameleon, we have had her since she was 4 months old and she is now 11 months.
• Handling – occasionally - maybe 1 time a week
• Feeding – Gut-loaded crickets, 5-10 a day depending on her appetite. Now she won’t let us handle her without hissing, she will not open her eyes, is puffed up.
• Supplements - Reptivite with D3
• Watering – We have a habimister that goes off every 3 hours for 15 seconds and we also had mist before work (7:30 am) and after work (5 pm)
• Fecal Description – Urates are pure white, fecal a bit runny and mid to dark brown. She is producing these on a regular basis.
• History – She has been healthy until I came home from work today.

Cage Info:
• Cage Type – Screen 3ft/2ft/2ft
• Lighting – Lights on at 5:00 a.m., off at 8:00 p.m. Basking lamp is 50 watt bulb, UVB is ZooMed tube light.
• Temperature – Daytime temps – under basking lamp 80-90, other topside 80-85, lower 70-80. Nighttime temps – 70-75. Use digital thermometer to check temps twice daily (when misting).
• Humidity – Humidity is approx 60-80 during the day (vet recommended). habimister that goes off every 3 hours for 15 seconds and we also had mist before work (7:30 am) and after work (5 pm)
• Plants – 1 live plant - hoya
• Placement – Cage is located in living room, not high traffic (spend most of our time in office/den), and is approx 5 feet off floor (top of cage)
• Location – Maryland

 

[reptilematt]

She hasnt laid eggs, yet and her sides are not lump. She is puffed up now with her throat also extended/puffed. She was not down at the bottom, we have never seen her there and we did buy a larger planter so that she had room to dig if needed. No one has confirmed the gender for us, the breeder said male...

 

[Mmcbain1]

Post us a picture of her I have 7 oustelets right now and thanks to kent and Trace I am getting more comfortable sexing them. Although at 11 months it should be pretty easy she should be a green or reddish and smaller than a male with no hemipenal bulge. although I suppose it may be difficult to judge with no comparison and being that she is one of the largest species. Are her colors like gravid colors? That sounds a bit like a female ready to lay get us pictures.. check out my thread I started not to long ago in chameleon identification titled 4 oustelets male or female? This may help you be sure of her sex..

 

[Lovereps]

Chameleon Info:
• Your Chameleon – Male/Female oustalet chameleon, we have had her since she was 4 months old and she is now 11 months.
• Feeding – Gut-loaded crickets, 5-10 a day depending on her appetite. Now she won’t let us handle her without hissing, she will not open her eyes, is puffed up.
• Supplements - Reptivite with D3
• • Fecal Description – Urates are pure white, fecal a bit runny and mid to dark brown. She is producing these on a regular basis.

Two problems stand out immediately.
If your info is complete, then she has only been eating crickets without any calcium supplementation for the past 7 months , so she must now have a severe calcium deficiency called MBD.
Crickets are calcium deficient and phosphorus rich, which is a bad combination, nutritionwise. This is why they are dusted with a plain calcium supplement each time they are fed to a cham.
Plain calcium without D3 is typically used at each feeding.
Calcium with D3 is typically used 2x a month, though there may or may not be enough D3 in the Reptivite multivitamin that she has been getting.
The multivitamin should be used 2x a month, not at every feeding.
See the link below for more info on MBD by a cham keeping veterinarian.
The second is runny stools, which can indicate a health problem such as internal parasites.
Unless today is just an anomaly, when a cham is closing its eyes during the daytime, it typically means that she is no longer strong enough to be able to hide her illness.
As others pointed out, she could also be gravid and if that is the case, the lack of calcium in her diet can also cause egg-binding, in which she can't lay the eggs.
UVB bulbs should be replaced every 6 months, since they continue to light but stop emitting enough D3 for your cham after about 6 months.

A vet visit with a good reptile knowledgeable vet would provide the best chance for her to recover.

Please see this for more info on MBD
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...lic-bone-disease-mbd-what-how-do-you-fix.html

 

[reptilematt]

Update

Her breeder had told us to dust every other feeding, and that the supplement that we were using was good - However since they also said that she was a boy, I am worried.

We should switch to calcium every dusting at D3 2x a month? We do gut load, should we continue doing that?

She doesn't show any other signs of MBD - and today is completely off for her?

We are on our second UVB bulb, we did replace that about 2 months ago. I am experienced with tortoises and my fiance is experienced with beardies and chinese water dragons and we did try to do our homework. I hope there is nothing else we are missing. If she is gravid, what other signs should we look for? Vet appointment tomorrow!

 

[Lovereps]

Her breeder had told us to dust every other feeding, and that the supplement that we were using was good - However since they also said that she was a boy, I am worried.

Well Reptivite isn't a bad supplement, it just isn't the one to use more than twice a month. It is a multivitamin.

We should switch to calcium every dusting at D3 2x a month? We do gut load, should we continue doing that?

.
Yes...Calcium dusting each meal
Calcium with D3 2x a month
Multivitamin 2x a month

The gutloading depends on what you mean by gutloading, if it is feeding the feeders with fresh vegetables, then yes.
If you mean using a store bought gutload, the no, it should be changed.
Here is a post about good nutrition, feeders , supplements and gutloading:https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ferretinmyshoes/560-frequently-asked-questions-nutrition.html

It's also quite important to feed her a variety of foods.
Different types of bugs have different levels of various vitamins/minerals , so it will help her to be healthy if she eats feeders like silkworms, dubias, hornworms, phoenix worms and even some superworms from time to time.

She doesn't show any other signs of MBD - and today is completely off for her?

Having not bothered to carefully read the Reptivite ingredients before, I now realize that she actually was getting some calcium from the Reptivite, but it isn't what is recommended for daily use.
Too many vitamins can be harmful.

We are on our second UVB bulb, we did replace that about 2 months ago. I am experienced with tortoises and my fiance is experienced with beardies and chinese water dragons and we did try to do our homework. I hope there is nothing else we are missing. If she is gravid, what other signs should we look for? Vet appointment tomorrow!

Glad you have changed the bulb.
I don't see anything else amiss, though you might consider shortening her hours of lighting a bit more towards 12 hours.
Mmcbain1 would be far better qualified to answer about gravid Oustelets.
I hope you'll let us know what the vet finds.
Best of luck with her!

 

[Wibus]

I wouldn't trip over the breeder knowing the sex because its pretty much impossible to tell at a young age with that species. You would need a dna test or an xray. The fact the told you it was a boy was just misleading because males usually sell more and can sometimes cost more

 

[Mmcbain1]

I agree with Wibus about the difficulty of sexing Oustelets. And you should read up on proper supplements 2X a month for calcium with D3 and 2 a month with multivitamins and all other feedings with calcium without D3. Is probably the most common recommendation youll get for supplements. I would like to think its not MBD but I suppose its possible. The biggest thing that concerns me is that her eyes are closed. This is not a good sign. Let us know how she is doing today, her colors make me think she is female but a good tailbase photo would help.

 

[reptilematt]

Thank everyone so much for their help! We will be switching her multivitamin to 2X a month and calcium every feeding.

We had tried worms before but she didn't really like them. We were doing hand feedings though, do you have any recommendations for setting the worms up in the cage? I had seen the self feeders but I'm not sure if they work.

You will all be happy to know that this morning, at her normal time, she woke up just before her lights turned on, ate a cricket, then moved to the top of the cage (her usual basking spot) and ate 2 more crickets like nothing happened!

I know that sometimes a stressed cham will freeze, close their eyes, and not move (may hiss/bite/etc.) in response to handling. We were not trying to handle her and just noticed her sitting like that - is it possible that something else stressed her out?

 

[Mmcbain1]

Its hard to say what the problem could be its good that she is eatingmake sure you give her lots of water and if you have a sunny day let her get some natural sunlight that always works wonders. In regards to feeding other than crickets, try roaches I have 2 colonies of roaches and I feed roaches crickets and worms. Think about taking your girl to a vet. with chameleons when you notice behavior that is different you have to catch it right away in order to save them that is just from my experience

 

[reptilematt]

Vet update

The Vet said that she looks fine now, but they are doing a stool sample just to be safe.

She is eating well, hydrated, and overall looks very healthy so he thinks she may have just been stressed by something?

Thank you everyone for your help! I will keep posting if anything changes

 

[Mmcbain1]

Yes please keep us posted remember chameleons can be affected by anything if you cleaned the house the other day and use certain chemicals this could affect her. If there was a noisy Gardner or anything that's out of the norm can put them in a bad mood!

 

[MCSEB]

I wish I could help. I'm so sorry to hear about this though. I really hope things do get better.

 

[Lovereps]

I'm very glad that it seems to have just been an "off day" for her, rather than something serious and that you're altering her supplement schedule.
When you see a behavior one day that is out of the ordinary, you know to keep an eye on her for a few days or longer to be sure it was just for that day rather than a symptom of illness.

Being a vigilant and caring owner is one of the best things for your cham because you may notice issues before they become huge problems.

If her cage is within view of a window, maybe there were some birds or a cat lingering nearby, stressing her out. Either way, she isn't talking

The fecal check is a great thing to have done, since parasites can be detected before they do harm to your cham.

She is certainly a lucky cham to have such a caring owner looking after her.
I hope she has a long, healthy life with you and that you'll pop in to post some pictures and let us know how she is from time to time.

I'm very interested in contacting the breeder, as I'd like to ask him a few questions.
Please PM me the contact info, if you wouldn't mind.