Our New J. Jacksonii

[Kent67]

Supposedly jax jax extend into Tanzania (Eason et al. 1988), but I've never seen pictures of them there or seen exports of anything other than Meru's from there. But, definitely not the "Willengensis" form or the Mt Kenya T. hoehnelli.

 

[eisentrauti]

Could you give me the hole name of the article ?

 

[RSGriff]

good looking chams. I would like to have some someday.

 

[Kent67]

Could you give me the hole name of the article ?

Variation in Chamaeleo jacksonii (Sauria, Chamaeleontidae): Description of a New Subspecies
Author(s): Perri Eason, Gary W. Ferguson, James Hebrard
Source: Copeia, Vol. 1988, No. 3 (Aug. 3, 1988), pp. 580-590

They didn't go there, but they referred to reports that j.j. have been found at a location in the Usambaras.


I really don't know what to think, really. They're very rare, yet every few years a number of large groups of these come in, from "farms" unknown, supposedly from a country that doesn't allow their export (there's no CITES quota because Kenya doesn't allow them out in the first place). They're all full-grown and females gravid. Traditionally, imports of this subspecies have done poorly. I think two years' agos imports were a good example. On the contrary, most arrive here looking very healthy. Sandy's fecal samples also point away from wild-caught origins. It's weird.

On the bright side, after giving my new j.j. a first round of meds and hearing Sandy's have been relatively clean, I put him in with my F1 female and he went right to her and started working on the next generation! I'll post pics and video in a new thread in a little while.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

I think ADcham explains it best theirs only 3 subspecies of Jacksonii with variations as you would see with any specific locale. Only one type of JJ that is recognized buy the scientific community.

 

[mattjillson]

Very impressive looking animals guys. Andy is supposed to be getting a shipment of Meru's 2nd week of June. Seeing these guys and having been tempted to get one when posted on KS, I am really looking forward to how the Merus look.

It was my understanding that Willengensis was the last name of a smuggler who was caught with a load of JJ and for whatever reason this name stuck as a "supposed" subspecies when in fact they're all jacksonii jacksonii. I believe it was an article on adcham I read a while ago. I might be wrong. Any validity to this story?

Kent, I'm in San Diego, please PM me when you raise those babies up and are looking to move them out. I might be interested in picking one up.

 

[Kent67]

Correct. That color form is usually referred to in quotation marks because it is not a valid subspecies.

Matt, obviously it'll be a while, but I'll let you know! Wish her luck... In the meantime, Pet Kingdom has a litter of a couple days' old jacksonii jacksonii they'd probably let go inexpensively to experienced keepers.

 

[mattjillson]

Will look into, thanks. I live not too far from there.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Hey Sandy, they look great! My new guy is doing well also and I'm thinking about introducing him to my F1 female. My local shop ended up with 2.2 of them on Friday when they were supposed to just get my one male in. They picked out two fat females and by yesterday one had already dumped a bunch of big, well-formed babies. Interesting also was that one of the males there is the standard green form of this subspecies.

Unfortunately I kind of doubt they were "farm-raised" now. In addition to them all being adult (and many gravid), according to a friend of mine who knows the importer, these either came in from Tanzania or Uganda. Maybe he was mistaken but I'd be interested to learn the whole story, someday. Anyone else hear this?

How exciting about the babies. We have some chubby girls here, but no one that looks to be that close to birthin' babies. But I do check the cages for little surprises .

So far 5 of the 6 have clean fecals, and follow-up fecals, and one guy has some coccidia. We will be checking fecals every few days to make sure we're not missing any parasite life-cycles. I guess we're just so surprised to see clean fecals that we don't trust the results yet.

 

[Sang]

and to think i gave up on trying to find someone that was eventually going to breed these guys.

They are so cool, i am excited.. *note to self, build super montane enclosure.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Geez.........

Geez Sandy......I'm afraid to come visit you again. I can tell that after seeing those fabulous animals in person that I would go off the cliff and try to get some for myself. They are wonderful looking. I have to figure out how to fit some in here before you have babies to sell! Congrats on an excellent find....

 

[bigcappa]

Gesang, wow you got a super group of Jacksonii Jacksonii... Good luck with them and I think I'm going to have to get a baby when you have them

 

[jannb]

Absolutely gorgeous!!!!!! Wishing you the very best of luck with them. Keep us updated and plenty of pics.

 

[merumontanus]

The willegensis are just this colored form. There's a good article on adcham. It's a special locality form which lives in a own area, seperated from the normal jacksonii jacksoniis. So please don't mix them up. I believe that the futher generation of this "hybrids" won't be real fertile.

Benny,

The form "willegensis" is not a recognized subspecies, but merely, a color variation among a population of T. jacksonii jacksonii, so technically, if a "willegensis" were to copulate with a "normal" specimen of the nominate subspecies, the progeny would not be considered hybrids. Even if two of the recognized subspecies were to reproduce, say merumontanus x xantholophus, the offspring would not be considered true hybrids and would also NOT be infertile. A great example of this are the jacksonii on the Hawaiian islands, which many consider to be intergrades (offspring from two different subspecies) of T. jacksonii jacksonii and T. jacksonii xantholophus, the result of which is apparent in their vast variation in color (and the common reds you see in some specimens), as well as the females with a single rostral horn that come up now and again.

Of course, there are areas of intergradation in Mt. Kenya, where both the nominate and the yellow-crested subspecies may occupy the same area, but a more detailed phylogenetic study is needed to answer all of these questions.

Rob Pilley from the UK has been looking closely into these differences and mentioned recently that a friend of his doing research in Kenya had found evidence of not only one additional subspecies, but more, including a much smaller subspecies than the dwarf Jackson's (T. jacksonii merumontanus).

Kent, I think we all know these jacksonii and hoehnelii aren't "F1 farmed", just like the last merumontanus that came in as such. There is another dealer selling them on Kingsnake.com and the animals in the photos look like they won't last another day, and the seller maintains that all animals are captive bred and from reputable "breeders". As you pointed out, the fact that these are all large adults (many gravid) is a clear sign that these are most likely wild-caught specimens as NO exporter in Africa would deal with the expense of raising these chameleons to this age before selling them-- it's just not profitable.

Cheers,

Fabián

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi Fabián,

I agree with you in some points, but in my opinion it isn't good to mix up those localities. Maybe they will be fertile in F1 or F2, but who knows if they are still in F5 ?
If you have the chance to establish seperated populations in captivity you should do it. I'm also no friend of mixed panther localities. Nobody knows if 100% pure blood lines are available in 5 years or so and also nobody knows if the future F-generations are fertile.
The special phenotyp of the Hawaii xantholophus could be also caused because of the small genpool.

That those animals imported as F1 or FZ are just simple WC ones is clear. I personally have never seen farm raised animals which really look like this

Best regards
Benny

 

[Kent67]

The form "willegensis" is not a recognized subspecies, but merely, a color variation among a population of T. jacksonii jacksonii, so technically, if a "willegensis" were to copulate with a "normal" specimen of the nominate subspecies, the progeny would not be considered hybrids.

The old definition of hybrid has been expanded now.
From Dictionary.com (American Heritage Dictionary source):
hy·brid (hī'brĭd)
n.
Genetics The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

 

[merumontanus]

Hi Fabián,

I agree with you in some points, but in my opinion it isn't good to mix up those localities. Maybe they will be fertile in F1 or F2, but how knows if they are still in F5 ?
If you have the chance to establish seperated populations in captivity you should done it. I'm also no friend of mixed panther localities. Nobody knows if 100% pure blood lines are available in 5 years or so and also nobody knows if the future F-generations are fertile.
The special phenotyp of the Hawaii xantholophus could be also caused because of the small genpool.

That those animals imported as F1 or FZ are just simple WC ones is clear. I personally have never seen farm raised animals which really look like this

Best regards
Benny

Oh no, I absolutely agree with you that one should maintain the "purity" (and I use that term loosely since we still lack a comprehensive phylogenetic survey of each "form") of each population/locale/morph, and that it should be done to the best of our knowledge (I strongly believe so with pardalis)). My point here is that, as it stands, willegensis is merely a color variant of the well-known nominate subspecies, and that the argument regarding their isolation in captivity from other "color variants" of the nominate form based on the fertility (or possible infertility) of the potential offspring is misleading as they would not be hybrids, but merely intergrades.

I also agree with you in that the high frequency of variation in the Hawaiian population of "xantholophus" may be due, in part, to their limited gene pool, but inbreeding would not necessarily explain the existence of single-horn females on the islands (or high reds). Without first establishing the evolutionary history of this group at the molecular (as well as morphological) level, it is, in my opinion, best to design a captive management program based on current (and accepted) knowledge, and not on assumptions regarding obscure differences in color among a population.

Something similar happened to Crotaphytus in the United States, where differences in color and size among populations of these lizards across the country gave birth to an excessive (and uninformed) emergence of subspecies, all of which were eventually proven invalid in 1996 after a phylogenetic study revealed that, despite their stark differences in color, size, and geographic isolation, there weren't enough contrasting genetic characters among the study group to justify new names-- these populations were merely "on their way" to becoming different subspecies thousands (if not millions) of years from now.

At the same time, a detailed survey of jacksonii may reveal that there are many more subspecies than we thought, including these "willegensis', but until then, I would keep the manufacturing of subspecies to a minimum.

Cheers,

Fabián

P.S. By the way, when are you getting yours?!

 

[AJA]

Sandy

WOW I don't care what kind of sub they are, they are way too cool. Please put me on your list when and if any little suprises come up.

 

[eisentrauti]

I'm getting my my merumontanus pairs probably next week. I hope so. There are is a problem at the authorities at the moment and they need more time

@AJA: They are not a subspecies, at the moment they are just a special colored form of the normal jacksonii jacksonii

 

[merumontanus]

The old definition of hybrid has been expanded now.
From Dictionary.com (American Heritage Dictionary source):
hy·brid (hī'brĭd)
n.
Genetics The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

Thanks, Kent. I should have been more specific. It should have read as follows, with the specifics in bold:

My point here is that, as it stands, willegensis is merely a color variant of the well-known nominate subspecies, and that the argument regarding their isolation in captivity from other "color variants" of the nominate form based on the fertility (or possible infertility) of the potential offspring is misleading as they would not be interspecific hybrids, but merely intergrades.

The color difference in the two forms of jacksonii may simply be a cline.

Fabián

*Benny, please post photos of your merumontanus when you get them! I'm as excited as you are.