Opinions on Cham (Panther) color in relation to supplementing.

[JonRich]

Some of you may remember my Gargamel x Dr.Gonzo Ambanja I had. Well he was sold about 5-6 months ago to a friend of mine who had recently lost their Panther.

The new owners is realllly good with their husbandry ( I try to make sure that any animal I sell goes to good homes).

That being said they only difference was some extra supplementing I was doing with him in the form of diet and gutloading (I won't name what they were justt yet).

This was him prior to being sold 5-6 months ago.

This is him today.

(granted these pix looked to be pre-shed. But the owner states he is this dull post-shed)

He was soo concerned about the lack of color that he took him to the vet. Vet reported a CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH!

So why the color change? I have my thoughts and will list them later in the thread.

Discuss.

 

[VanessaS]

Wow! So what were you giving him? Is everything else the same? Lighting, misting, plants, diet, ect,..

 

[squeekz1992]

Wow. That is a MAJOR difference. What do you gutload vs what s/he gutloads?

 

[chamillionaire3]

damn that is crazy. i gotta know, what changed?

 

[squeekz1992]

Is he depressed?

 

[Alexl]

I don't think it's a problem made by supplementation, but by other parts of cage and keeping setup. There might be little differences that aren't noticed yet or such that may work inside the one owner's house, but don't inside another. Additionally, he seems to have a sheeding problem (no matter what the owner said), a lesion at his mouth and/or another health problem leading to his up to date condition. And he's stressed by the fotographer obviously. Would be very interesting to know which tests were done to assure he's "healthy" at the vets. E.g. just taking a look at the chameleon or doing one single fecal doesn't prove anything. Only different supplementation will not result in those changes shown above, surely not. To me, he looks like the typical immunocompromised chameleon coming to practice, suffering from a lot of little missed problems the same time.

 

[JonRich]

Wow! So what were you giving him? Is everything else the same? Lighting, misting, plants, diet, ect,..

The same, he probably offers better care than i did ( in the way of a lottttt of natural sunlight). I live in NYC and i can only offer natural sunlight for a short period during the year.

Wow. That is a MAJOR difference. What do you gutload vs what s/he gutloads?

I think it is a major difference also. I'll list the gutload later ( i will also have the new owner start him back on it and see if it changes). This was my plan with him, to take him off to see if the color would change. I sold him b4 i could follow through with it.

damn that is crazy. i gotta know, what changed?

Just a different gutload

Is he depressed?

I don't think so. He even bred with one of his females, large planted cage,lots of outside time. What more can a cham want?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Stress being a huge culprit in my mind with dull coloration. Chronic stress from inadequate husbandry can certainly cause changes. I'm interested to see what other info you have that might be contributing.

Oh! Also last year about this time my male panther lost a lot of his natural coloration and became pretty dull (not quite that dull) and nothing changed in his husbandry at all. Come spring he colored right back up to his normal colors. I made a thread about it and some others commented that their had had seasonal changes causing dull coloration as well and theirs came back with the change in seasons too. Food for thought...

 

[deadhd5]

Could the new owner be a smoker (or a toker)? Perhaps they are using a cleaning product that puts off nasty fumes. Is the cage near a vent? Maybe the cage is in a high traffic area.

 

[cricketkilla]

I don't think it's a problem made by supplementation, but by other parts of cage and keeping setup. There might be little differences that aren't noticed yet or such that may work inside the one owner's house, but don't inside another. Additionally, he seems to have a sheeding problem (no matter what the owner said), a lesion at his mouth and/or another health problem leading to his up to date condition. And he's stressed by the fotographer obviously. Would be very interesting to know which tests were done to assure he's "healthy" at the vets. E.g. just taking a look at the chameleon or doing one single fecal doesn't prove anything. Only different supplementation will not result in those changes shown above, surely not. To me, he looks like the typical immunocompromised chameleon coming to practice, suffering from a lot of little missed problems the same time.

I am curious as to what tests were performed as well. He looks a little dehydrated as well. I agree he looks immunocompromised. My male that I lost last month looked like this the few days before passing. Interesting about the change in nutrition after he was rehomed, that could definitely be a factor as well. I hope he cheers up, his pictures are breathtaking. Best of luck

 

[JonRich]

Stress being a huge culprit in my mind with dull coloration. Chronic stress from inadequate husbandry can certainly cause changes. I'm interested to see what other info you have that might be contributing.

Oh! Also last year about this time my male panther lost a lot of his natural coloration and became pretty dull (not quite that dull) and nothing changed in his husbandry at all. Come spring he colored right back up to his normal colors. I made a thread about it and some others commented that their had had seasonal changes causing dull coloration as well and theirs came back with the change in seasons too. Food for thought...

It could be. This is why i'd like other opinions. I will have the owner chime in about his husbandry and care. I have followed his threads since getting "Bruce" and it seems good IMHO.
This is one of his cage threads.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/rack-system-hold-two-2x2x4-cages-90164/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-cage-set-up-86773/
Outdoor time
https://www.chameleonforums.com/fun-sun-89533/

 

[JonRich]

Could the new owner be a smoker (or a toker)? Perhaps they are using a cleaning product that puts off nasty fumes. Is the cage near a vent? Maybe the cage is in a high traffic area.

Well it's definately not about high traffic. I did several pre-school demos with him without issue. I also have 2 kids that used to handle him on a regular basis.

 

[Psychobunny]

That is a huge difference.
Could it just be stress?
How long did it take for this change to take place?

 

[squeekz1992]

I think it is a major difference also. I'll list the gutload later ( i will also have the new owner start him back on it and see if it changes). This was my plan with him, to take him off to see if the color would change. I sold him b4 i could follow through with it.

I don't think so. He even bred with one of his females, large planted cage,lots of outside time. What more can a cham want?

That's crazy. Just one change and he looks all sad and boring color...

True, but a lot of people and animals that have everything they can/would want still get depressed. Especially after a move.

 

[JonRich]

That's crazy. Just one change and he looks all sad and boring color...

True, but a lot of people and animals that have everything they can/would want still get depressed. Especially after a move.

Maybe he misses me? lol

If thats the case, then they can identify individuals

 

[VanessaS]

It's killing me!!! Sooooo... What was in your gutload and what supplements were you using that you think might of contributed to this?

 

[clarkrw3]

This is SUPER interesting!!! I have a cham suffering the same thing. The thing is with him NOTHING has changed. he is in the cham room(all other chams look GREAT), he is around 11 other chams eating the same food with the same gutload on the same misting system and the same lights. He has gotten dull and depressed looking, much less active and I have been fearing he was going to die. He has great grip, hand feeds well but doesn't bask like he use to and spends more of his time in the dark part of his cage. I haven't gotten him outside as much as I would have wanted to but still.

I am really interested in hearing what others have to say about this.

 

[ataraxia]

We really cant gauge from the before picture to even the now pictures without all of the factors that played in the coloring of the first. Was he shown a female, male or his own self in a mirror for the coloration? If i had to guess by how bright he is, looks like he was showing off for a female. Does the new owner have a female to show him? Does he change then?

Ill throw some guesses that come to mind.

The chameleon in the pictures looks cold or ready for sunlight. He also looks like he is about to shed.

Can he see another chameleon? Particularly a male panther?
Has he been over supplemented with d3? What is the schedule and types used?
What kind of lighting?
Whats his temps?

His turrets in the skull dont look as full as before either. To me this says he is either A. Cold B. needs more water. C. something going on wither it is a infection or some sort of illness. Was the vet familiar with chameleons and was it is just a routine check up of looking over the chameleons and possibly doing a fecal? Was any blood work done or xrays?

 

[tkilgour]

Wow, he looks to be in poor health now. That is a shame, when he was in your care, he was perfect looking. You can see mouth rot on his lip and his eyes are kind of sunken in. There is no question that diet plays a major role in the overall health and appearance of just about everything. I really do not see why that is so hard for many people to understand. Glad you shared pics of him after his new home.

 

[JonRich]

We really cant gauge from the before picture to even the now pictures without all of the factors that played in the coloring of the first. Was he shown a female, male or his own self in a mirror for the coloration? If i had to guess by how bright he is, looks like he was showing off for a female. Does the new owner have a female to show him? Does he change then?

Ill throw some guesses that come to mind.

The chameleon in the pictures looks cold or ready for sunlight. He also looks like he is about to shed.

Can he see another chameleon? Particularly a male panther?
Has he been over supplemented with d3? What is the schedule and types used?
What kind of lighting?
Whats his temps?

His turrets in the skull dont look as full as before either. To me this says he is either A. Cold B. needs more water. C. something going on wither it is a infection or some sort of illness. Was the vet familiar with chameleons and was it is just a routine check up of looking over the chameleons and possibly doing a fecal? Was any blood work done or xrays?

To be honest. He was in view of a female the day of those pix. I have attached a pic of him at rest and no exposure to any female. Only difference is the yellow baring in his turrets.

As for everything else, this is his history with me

*He was purchased at the age of 2.5 months and i pretty much watched him mature. ( just crickets and pheonixworms- feeding the crickets Repashy's Bug Burger and fresh fruit and veggies)
He was on the small side and slow growing
Kept in a 16x16x20 screened cage till about 4 months
*Then he was moved to a 18x18x24 ExoTerra (around this time i started playing around with his supplementing in the form of different commercial feeder goods and stuff i find locally.. He was on dubias, crickets, superworms, butterworms and pheonixworms- feeding his feeders Rapashy BugBurger and fresh fruit and veggies)
*All the while he was on Rapashy's Cal PLUS daily "all in one" every other feeding. He was fed daily till about 7 months old, then i would skip days.
*Hydration, he had a dripper and i hand mist.

I was a bit concerned about the lack of progression of his colors since he came from a well-known bloodline as can be seen in this thread below.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-son-gargamel-ambanja-azriel-blue-72268/
At about the time he went into the ExoTerra i started feeding his feeders a mix of Tom Kilgore's Dino Fuel and Dino Fuel Raptor in with the BugBurger. I later started adding blended up dandelion flowers and organic bee pollen I'd get from a farmers market here in NYC.. He was on this till the day i sold him ( i did take a break from this for 2 weeks because he was showing a lot of yellow and i wanted more purple baring and blue body... I did notice a reduction in yellow in his cheeks and back during this time). Honestly i got lazy of loading a separate batch of feeders just for him, so i put him back on the diet. The same diet my Ambliobe in my Avatar was on.

Then he was sold.. I would get update pix of him every month or so and i noticed that he was getting a bit dull. But the pix i got today was what sparked this thread.

Disclaimer: I don't want this thread to turn into a add for any of the products i have been testing. (these tests were not controled and did not have controled subjects).. This is just from my logs kept with my personal animals.