New Owner - Budget Cage / Enclosure

[eidolen]

Hi,
First I want to say that these forums have been a huge help in getting set up *hopefully* properly for my new baby Veiled Chameleon. I've owned reptiles for most of my life and always wanted a chameleon, but it was much more involved than I would have imagined. Now that I've gotten most of the major requirements covered, I wanted to post my setup here to get some input if everything looks ok or add further recommendations to improve his quality of life.

Due to financial concerns I had to build most everything I could with what I had around. All said and done I think it has cost not much over $100 of which the bulk of it was for screening and plumbing accessories for the misting system. (and the UVA/UVB Bulb) The last item I know I need to buy is an appropriate nozzle to mist with. The one I'm using does an OK job but I can tell that it needs to be a finer mist particle so I'm not using too much water.

I also plan on building a larger enclosure once he grows close to adult size, most likely using PVC as suggested in a few posts I found here.


The pictures are in chronilogical order so some things have changed from the beginning. Most of the pictures are labeled and a good bit of them have a pop-up decription. To see a picture in full resolution you can click the download button and select original.

http://gallery.eidolen.sent.com/public/Chameleon/

Any input or questions are welcomed.
Eidolen

 

[Fearaffect]

I know one thing here, people r gonna say get rid of that UVB bulb/coil and get a linear one. The one u have "can" cause eye problems.......

Also, how small is this veiled gonna be?? The space might be to big for him, he can get out???? Dont know, but looks like it.

Sweet looking setup overall though....good job, especially building your own misting system......

 

[Pure]

I like how you did the controls. Mind giving an overview of the water heater?

The 2 big things I see as a problem is the UV and the heat lamp. The UV bulb you are using is a compact floro. They've been linked to many problems and even the ones that have had the whole cham blinding issue fixed, they are not the best way to provide your cham UV as he will have to sit directly under it to absorb the UV. The problem with that is these floro bulbs put out UV on such a low level, it's best if the cham has constant or almost constant UV exposure. Best way to provide UV and cut out other potential problems by going with a linear tube type bulb, Repti Sun being the preferred brand.

Secondly, you need to get the heat lamp out of the cage. The cham can and probably will try to climb on it and the potential for thermal burns is really high with it like it is.

Not a huge deal but the feeder cup should be at the bottom or at least lower that the chams perch. He needs to see there is food in there.

 

[eidolen]

I know one thing here, people r gonna say get rid of that UVB bulb/coil and get a linear one. The one u have "can" cause eye problems.......

Oh boy
I did do some research before I got the chameleon and found that bulb to be recommended more than any other bulb. Granted it could have been bad luck that the random sites I visited at the time just had bad or incomplete info, but I had felt pretty confident about that decision when I bought it. It wasn't until a week or so after my purchase that I found some info to the contrary.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm

After the initial scare and reading the bulk of the information there I had concluded that the problem was fixed by the manufacturer and there was no real danger any longer. I even found further endorsements for this bulb that appear to be scientifically backed.

A quote from: http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/uvlightingresearch.htm

Ferguson in his scientific paper concluded that Panther chameleons require moderate levels of UVB. Commercial low level UVB producing bulbs (such as the Zoomed 5.0), when used correctly, produce adequate amounts for successful reproduction whereas too much UVB can negatively effect the hatchability of Panther chameleon eggs.

Of course I want to do what is best if possible so if there is more current or conflicting data that I'm missing I would greatly appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

Also, how small is this veiled gonna be?? The space might be to big for him, he can get out???? Dont know, but looks like it.

I'm not sure what you mean by how small he's gonna be, but he has really grown already at an astounding rate. I've had him for around 5-6 weeks now I guess and he has easily doubled in size if not more. I did read that it's not optimal to start in a big cage, but to consolidate his furnishings so that he only really uses a smaller portion. I guess I could do a little better in that respect but he seems to use most of the cage.

As far as escaping, that was my main concern as there are both cats and dogs abound so I can assure you that there is no escaping for the little critter. There are a few pictures of him that maybe you missed but he is even bigger now.

Sweet looking setup overall though....good job, especially building your own misting system......

Thank you very much. It has been a good bit of work, but very rewarding at the same time.

I like how you did the controls. Mind giving an overview of the water heater?

Not at all. I got the idea here, https://www.chameleonforums.com/diy-water-heater-22390/ and just took it a few steps further. Instead of just coiling up the tubing in the jar I decided to create radiator of sorts to evenly distribute the heat into the coils and to keep the coils closer to the element for better transfer. I also decided to mount the connections into the lid with quick connector elbows for easier setup and bypass if needed. I have an in-line quick connector available if I need to clean the jar or any other service needs but I did use a cap full of bleach in the heating water to cut down on the possibility of any organism buildup as has been mentioned before in this type of setup even though it doesn't mix with the water that is being used.

The supports for the radiator are just scraps of 1/2" CPVC I had laying around. If my hand would fit into the jar a little easier I would have used some JB-Weld type epoxy to mount some sort of sockets for the bottoms of the CPVC so I could locate it exactly where I wanted to and still be able to remove the entire assembly if needed. The jar that was used in the link above had a much wider mouth and would be easier to work with in general, but I used what I had handy. I used brass compression fittings on the inside of the jar to connect to the elbows. You can see them in one of the pictures sitting behind the coils before they were put into the jar. I would have preferred to use a plastic fitting, but could not find any female threaded plastic fittings at all. The water supply is coming from a Rainsoft 4 stage RO system that is fed by a Rainsoft Gold Series Water Conditioner with an in-line UV filter.

If there is something I missed just ask and I will try to explain.

The 2 big things I see as a problem is the UV and the heat lamp. The UV bulb you are using is a compact floro. They've been linked to many problems and even the ones that have had the whole cham blinding issue fixed, they are not the best way to provide your cham UV as he will have to sit directly under it to absorb the UV. The problem with that is these floro bulbs put out UV on such a low level, it's best if the cham has constant or almost constant UV exposure. Best way to provide UV and cut out other potential problems by going with a linear tube type bulb, Repti Sun being the preferred brand.

As you stated, I was under the impression that these problems were fixed. As far as the amount, that was the reason for the custom reflector. According to the graphs provided by the links above, using a reflector can easily double the amount of UV as well as having the bulb almost horizontal. I do realize that the mesh screen does stop some light, but again the graphs they show have a negligible difference in output when placed around 12" away. The screen really only makes a big difference when metered at very close distances.

That all said, does anyone think that this setup is technically "Bad" for my buddy, or just not optimal? The difference for me is do I need to replace this setup immediately, or is it sufficient enough for the short life span of the bulb and can be dealt with when it's time to change the bulb that's there?

Secondly, you need to get the heat lamp out of the cage. The cham can and probably will try to climb on it and the potential for thermal burns is really high with it like it is.

I admit I was worried about this myself at first but I have never seen him on, or even near it unless it is to travel past it while I'm working in the cage. My concern was that the heat generated by it would burn the "Pet Resistant" "synthetic" (nylon, plastic, pcv, abs???) screen I used for the cage. I watched very carefully for the first 2 weeks as I was very worried but I didn't want to start a fire either. If someone can confirm that a 90 watt spot won't damage the screen I would definitely rather have it on the outside of the cage. I'm of course open to other suggestions as well if this is not a feasible solution.

Not a huge deal but the feeder cup should be at the bottom or at least lower that the chams perch. He needs to see there is food in there.

The jar is glass and he sees the food easily through the para-cord basket. At first he did try and catch his prey "through" the glass which didn't work out so well for him, but now he has learned and knows how to get his food without any trouble. I feel kinda stupid that I didn't think to lower it sooner but it seems he has already figured out how to compensate for my ineptness. I already moved it once as I had it too close to the focus of the spot lamp. Even though the crickets would survive a full day in the jar, I realized it was not good and moved it to the shade. I will consider moving it again but he seems to know where and how to get his food now so I don't think it's a huge issue any more.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to point out these things and will work to improve his habitat. I will also try and get some good pictures of him to put up but wanted to focus on his environment first.

Thanks again and I'm looking forward to some more input on the UVA/UVB issue so I can make an informed decision.

Eidolen

 

[jannb]

At the top there's a search tab. Search coil UVB and just look at all the eye problems chameleons have from them. This is the UVB light that you need. The only one recommended for chameleons.
http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-15-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/

 

[Pure]

As you stated, I was under the impression that these problems were fixed. As far as the amount, that was the reason for the custom reflector. According to the graphs provided by the links above, using a reflector can easily double the amount of UV as well as having the bulb almost horizontal. I do realize that the mesh screen does stop some light, but again the graphs they show have a negligible difference in output when placed around 12" away. The screen really only makes a big difference when metered at very close distances.

I think you are misunderstanding what I said about those bulbs. Wile the reflector may double the UV (personally I think increasing it by 1/2 is a little more accurate) But it doesn't change the fact that the UV is concentrated in ONE area. Your cham will not get enough UV like this. Since UV bulbs produce such a week level of UV compared to sun light, he needs constant exposure or as close to constant as it can get. We do this with a linear tube type bulb.

I don't know where you are but the bulbs can be found at reasonable price at LLL reptile (site sponsor) and a cheap fixture can be bought at walmart for less than 10 bucks.

 

[eidolen]

Thanks for the replies. Since it seems to be a consensus that the CFL bulb is just bad, I wanted to do some more research before I made a decision on the matter as I am not really flush right now and able to just dispose of a new UV bulb. I spent a few hours last night trying to find hard evidence that the newer bulbs that have been on the market since the debacle back in 2007-2008 are still causing problems. Thought I couldn't find anything concrete that the newer bulbs have been causing photo-kerato-conjunctivitis, I did find that these bulbs start producing UVB much lower in the spectrum than it's tube counterpart which seems to be a topic of interest at the UVGuide website.

With this knowledge I went ahead and contacted Zoo Med directly with my concerns and asked for a tube replacement. They responded quickly and stated:

"I am familiar with the sites you have made reference to and I would like to assure you that the manufacturing process and instructions for use have changed and the new bulbs have been on the market for over a year. We are not seeing this problem happen with any of our bulbs when used properly."

They did however offer to replace my bulb for a tube if I liked which I thought was great. Too bad I haven't been able to find my receipt yet. Worse case is that I go ahead and use this bulb until it expires and replace it then with a tube. At least I know what to look for now after all the research I've done and I agree with Pure that it would be better to have the increased coverage area of a tube. Regardless I appreciate the tips that enabled me to make some informed decisions about it.

The only remaining question I have on the subject is the absence on UVA for the bulbs that are recommended. From what I have read:

an excerpt from http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/uvlightingresearch.htm
"Clearly, failure to provide UVA lighting dramatically alters the reptile's perception of their world and is likely to cause STRESS which will ultimately be detrimental to your chameleons health.
It's probably the equivalent of us having to go back to black and white televisions. Not something any of us would relish."

Any thoughts on this?


I also went ahead and patched in a piece of metal screen in the top of the enclosure to allow me to place the spot lamp on the outside. Thanks again Pure for pointing it out.

Lastly I wanted to let you know that the water heater is working even better than I had expected. I don't have an optimum mist nozzle on right now and too much water comes out, but even with that much water going through the system I still turned it off before I ran out of hot water. I was afraid if I ran it any longer it would turn into a swamp. The other details about the system I failed to mention was the old heater I used was labeled as 25 watts. I eventually want to put the entire jar in some sort of insulated container and possibly put it on a timer as well to start up before the auto mister, but just sitting out uninsulated I still get a temperature reading of 109 degrees from my Fluke IR thermometer pointed at the jar. Also I believe there is about 20' tubing in the jar. I used a 25' package of tubing from Home Depot just for the heater but I had a little excess once I threaded it through the PVC. If someone were to use a jar with a wider lid or taller, you could easily add another 5 - 15' to gain even more duration but I really don't think it would be needed from what I experienced.

I will try to add the updated pictures of the enclosure tomorrow and hopefully get a seal of approval, minus the bulb of course.

Cheers,
Eidolen

 

[eidolen]

Well I headed back to Petsmart today to try and get them to replace my CFL with the Reptisun 5.0 tube, and the manager agreed to replace it even though I didn't have my receipt. Of course Murphy had his law book out and cracked a smile. They didn't have *any* Reptisun tubes. He even checked the store 20 miles down the road and all the had were the Reptiglows. I was under the impression that these were the De-Fact-O tubes to be had, so I'm wondering if they are just out of stock or just don't carry them. I know they have them on their website.

Not sure what I'll do now but I haven't given up yet. I still don't know if I will get a T8 or T12 tube as a replacement either. I have a T8 fixture and it would be a real bummer to have to buy a T12 fixture while they are in the process of phasing that style out.


I took new pics of the cage with the wire mesh patch and will up tomorrow. I have noticed I took a Huge hit in temperature after doing that. I had my dimmer at about 3/4 before with a basking temp around 90F. At full blast through the mesh, I haven't seen it above 82F and I'm using a 90 watt bulb. Seems like I might not be done yet if that's as hot as I can get it.

Eidolen

 

[jheitz]

A repti-glo will work. The UV out put is a little shy of the Repti-Sun, I don't have the number of hand, but it will get you by for a month or two. You can pick up really cheap fixtures from Home Depot or Lowes. The only problem I find is trying to get one 24'' long. Try a lower wattage bulb, like a 50 watt. Keep experimenting and let us know how things go. Awsome set up! I love your control center!!

 

[Khammy87]

Wow

Thats pretty impressive and well thought out! I want to build a new enclosure for my little girl. Probably won't be until spring. She is currently in a 18"x18"x48" aquarium stood upright (I know I know). My house is pretty cool in the wintertime, so I figure it would be fine til spring to build a new enclosure! Im quite impressed on the wiring of the control panel there, props to you and I will probably try to replicate something similar if you don't mind!

 

[eidolen]

Thanks for the compliments, please let me know if I can help in any way and I'll do what I can. I would have loved to have just gone out to buy what I needed, but I'm actually really happy with how it turned out using old stuff laying around. One of the bargains I forgot to mention is the timers I bought from Home Depot. The were on close-out for $.78 each! Yes you read that right, and the lighted one was a whipping $.80. LOL It looked like they were phasing that old style out and just wanted to dump them which was great for me. They still had boxes of them so people still might be able to find some at thier local Home Depot if you know where to search.

The thing that I didn't like about them was the outlet right on the side which would prevent me from lining them up beside the dimmers or anything else. I ended up taking them apart and soldering a wire to the back of the outlet to get by that problem. That way the outlet on the side is still active if I ever need to use it in the future. I wish I had remembered to take pictures in case anyone else wanted to give it a go, but you can get the general idea from looking at the finished pictures. Just know it was easier to do on the non lighted timer as it has more room inside to run the wire.

A repti-glo will work. The UV out put is a little shy of the Repti-Sun, I don't have the number of hand, but it will get you by for a month or two. You can pick up really cheap fixtures from Home Depot or Lowes. The only problem I find is trying to get one 24'' long. Try a lower wattage bulb, like a 50 watt. Keep experimenting and let us know how things go. Awsome set up! I love your control center!!

Thanks for the tip, but after all the trouble so far, I really do want to get the Reptisun and be done with it. If it just doesn't work out, I might just do that though. I agree it would still be better than what I have.

Cheers,
Eidolen

Just added new pics of the screen patch and the ficus plant he has been eating. They are at the very end.

 

[eidolen]

Well I caved in and got the Repti Glo. Not optimum, but still better than what I had. I built a makeshift hood and was able to use an old Mr. Light T8 fixture that was around and it seems to work very nice. The only down side is the fixture is so cheap that it doesn't support auto on. You have to hold the button down to charge the light up first which means the timer won't turn it on. I'll have to investigate if I can wire in a starting capacitor to fix that. If not, I can see a new fixture in my future.

Other than that, I'm still not getting enough heat from the spot light. I have some different screen with larger holes in it I think I'm going to try, but for now I've been supplementing with the heater I had originally installed for cool nights. I also added a pretty large, super smooth basking rock in a homemade hammock to hopefully absorb, and retain some heat from the lights. It's begining to seem like I'll be starting on his adult cage by the time I get this one done. LOL

I reorganized the pics into sub-directories so it's not so hard to find things in one big folder. Feel free to point out any concerns if anything strikes you.

Cheers,
Eidolen