New Owner, 2 Female Veiled Chameleons, One was adopted SICK

dukeVC

New Member
I'll start with a basic overview of what is going on, and have the attached form filled out below. I purchased a young female veiled from a local pet store (We have named her Laurel). We built a screened habitat for her, purchased the needed equipment, and took her home. The store we purchased her from had another female in the same glass not much larger than a shoebox enclosure. Two days after purchase, I got a call from the store saying the other Chameleon that was in the habitat with her was at the vet (Her name is now Lucy). Lucy stayed at the vet for almost a week. She was diagnosed with Coccidia and pinworms, so Laurel was brought in and treated for the same problem. Laurel is healthy and doing well. Lucy on the other hand, is not. Lucy was originally brought into the vet because she was unable to open her right eye, and it was swollen, along with general lethargy. The vet diagnosed Lucy with an eye infection that had not been properly treated quickly enough, and said that she would be "disabled" her entire life due to the length of time she had coccidia and the eye infection, and a calcium deficiency. She was sent back to the pet store with the recommendation that she be adopted out and NOT sold.... So they begged me to take her, as the breeder wouldn't accept her back and they couldn't keep her at the store. She is currently taking the following medications: Flurbiprofen opthalmic solution (1 drop to right eye once daily for 10 days then as needed) Neopolybac opthalmic ointment (thin strip to right eye once daily as needed), Calcium glubionate (0.1 ml by mouth once daily for 30 days)

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
2 Female Veiled Chameleons, approx 10-14 months old (according to pet store). Laurel has been in our care for 2 weeks, Lucy for 3 days

Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Laurel has been handled about every other day, and she eats crickets from our hands. Lucy has to be handled every day for medication administering.

Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Laurel is eating 4-5 large crickets a day, fed around 6pm every day. She eats them from a small glass cup or our hand. Lucy has not eaten yet (Vet had been sticking crickets in her mouth to get her to eat). Crickets are gut loaded with fresh vegetables

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
The supplements we have purchased and have been using are-Reptocal calcium and flukers reptile vitamin with beta carotene. After some extended reading on here, I realize that the Reptocal has D3 which the girls should not be getting every day, so I am going out today to get a PLAIN calcium dust. The crickets were dusted with it every feeding for 1 week for Laurel, and Lucy hasn't eaten yet, but is on a prescription calcium supplement from the vet. Flukers vitamin has been given once.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
We have a homemade dripper consisting of a tupperware container, air tubing, and a valve that constantly drips onto a leaf. We mist the habitat at least twice a day until everything in it is dripping well. I have seen Laurel drinking from the dripper, but have not seen Lucy drink yet.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
Laurels droppings have been brown with white urate. Consistency seemed to be a good solid but not hard. Lucy hasn't defecated that I know of yet. They were both tested for parasites and were treated for pinworms and Coccidia.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Laurel seems to be doing great after her 5 day cycle of meds for Coccidia. Lucy has had a very stressful two weeks, and was kind of shoved on me without much preparation. Please read my intro.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
We have a wood and screen enclosure that is 18x18 and almost 3 ft tall. It is screen on 3 sides with a sealed wood panel on the back, although the back panel has two holes in it covered with screen.
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
We have a UVB bulb in a t5 fixture that we special ordered, I'm pretty sure it is zoo med brand, but can't be certain. We started out with one zilla dome fixture with a exoterra 50w daytime heat bulb, but I purchased another one (with zoomed 50w daytime bulb) since we recieved Lucy. The basking lamps are on opposite sides of the top of the habitat, and both have a sturdy vine underneath to allow basking.
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Cage floor is around 73, basking spot is 85-90. Lowest overnight temp is 70. Temps are measured with dial thermometers at the top and a strip thermometer at the bottom
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Humidity level stays between 30% at the lowest and 70%. We have had a difficult time keeping the humidity steady. We are misting the habitat a few times a day, using the dripper, have live plants, and have set a humidifier next to the cage to assist with levels. I am looking at purchasing a warm mist humidifier/fogger I found at walgreens that I think would help a lot.
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
We have a large live pothos in the habitat, with the longer vines secured to different parts of the screen to create climbing areas. We also have two fake plants purchased from the pet store because they were the same they had in their first enclosure. We also have two fake vines twisted around the cage to allow plenty of climbing space, horizontal and vertical.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Our cage is located in the living room corner, which isn't really a high traffic area. The top of the cage is 3 1/2 ft off of the floor. There are no air vents, but the sliding glass door is somewhat close to it, opened maybe 4 times a day and shut quickly. There are curtains over the door to prevent the cold air from flowing in.
Location - Where are you geographically located?
Virginia

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
Laurel seems to be healthy and doing well. Lucy is taking her medication from the vet, but we cannot get her to eat, and cannot confirm that she has eaten in at least 5 days. She never opens her right eye, and the left eye stays shut most of the time, but she will open it every now and then, look around, and close it again. Lucy seems to be almost ashy looking, a greyish tint to her skin, not vibrant at all. She is very skinny. We have tried to hand feed her crickets, and she shows no intrest, even when she does open her left eye and see them. The vet wants to give me a liquid diet for her today so we can syringe feed her. Right now, they ARE in the same enclosure, but we will be getting a separate one for Lucy within two weeks. They have separate basking spots and plenty of places to keep away from each other, but we are seeing them sitting together under the same lamp, Laurel gripping Lucy's tail, with no obvious signs of upset. Laurel keeps going to sit near Lucy, and no colors flare up on either of them, no puffing of throats, nothing. They were in the same tiny enclosure at the pet store for 2 1/2 months.

At this point, what can I do to help Lucy heal? What am I looking at life long for her? What are the immediate concerns, and what are the long term ones? How can I make sure these two girls are healthy, happy, and well taken care of?
 
1 adult chams shouldnt be in the view of each other
2 sick chams should be in the same tank as healthy chams

As far as helping, the main consern is to keep her hydrated. I would also recommend dropper peach baby food for some extra calories. I have never seen a lizard refuse it, they all seem to have a sweet tooth.

PS: How is the poop?
 
Welcome!
Sorry your girls are having a hard time.

Are they in the same cage? if so, you should seperate them as this can cause stress on them.

If Lucy isnt doing well, Laurel could be taking all the food and stressing Lucy out.

Next- your basking temp is too high. Females should have temps no higher than 84 IMO, as high temps and too mcuh food can lead to egg production which you want to avoid.

I would feed both girls every other day that much food. I also wouldnt feed so late in the day. Lights should be on a 12 on 12 off cycle. and chams need the heat of basking to help them digest. if you feed so late and then their lights go off 2 hours later, it wont help them digest which can be a problem.
I try to let my chams have at least 4 hours of basking time to digest food.

SOmetimes when chams are sick, they will stop eating. Also, some meds can make them go off their food. RIght now, water is most important.

However if lucy still hasnt eaten, I would try putting a cricket or two in her mouth (without forcing her) to see if she will eat it since its already in her mouth.

I know the pain of treating a cham with coccidia. MY male panther glacier had it and it was a pain to make go away.

Once they test clean, make sure you sterlize everything in their cages. I just replaced al the plants.

I dont know if this will affect your girls, but my male panther has stunted growth, which im not sure if its from the coccidia, or if its becuase he has a genetic defect.

Not trying to scare you, but just putting it out there.

I would also mist them at least 4-5 times a day minimum to make sur ethey have acess to water all day long.

if you cant find plain calcium at the store, you will probably have to order it online.
 
They are in the same cage for now, and unfortunately I cant change that for at least a week, although the new cage is currently being built. As I said, Lucy was pretty much thrust at me without time for preparation. Laurel is eating from a small glass dish that we put crickets in one at a time until she is full. We make sure to feed each of them to avoid not knowing who ate what. Lucy is still under on the medications, so that may be what is causing her to not eat, but we are even trying to put them in her mouth and she is refusing. I am not sure if it is because she can't see them or is not hungry, or just plain refusing. The lights are on a 12 hr schedule, turning on at 11 am and turning off at 11 pm. They get fed around 6 pm. They have both been treated and cleared of coccidia, the problem now is with Lucy's eyes, which we have been told by the vet will be a lifelong issue. The vet also mentioned stunted growth and development due to coccidia and calcium deficinecy for Lucy, but did not elaborate much after that. Today, Lucy's left eye swelled like a balloon for about 3 seconds while I was handling her, and she tried to rub her eye on my hand. The swelling immediately dissappeared and has not returned. I called the vet and was pretty much told they can't do anything about it, and not to bring her in unless it happens again and stays that way. I am struggling with what to do for her. I am irritated that the vet won't really explain much, knowing I am a new reptile owner. No one ever came out and said she has MBD, but they did prescribe a 30 day calcium supplement (liquid), and from what I have read that can because they think she has MBD? ahh, I am learning, and this is a crash course in Cham care for me. We honestly would like to find Lucy a new home altogether, but took her for the time being to make sure she was getting her medications and would have some chance. We want to make sure she is as healthy as she can possibly be.
 
I can pick up peach baby food today. The liquid diet from the vet is $18 for a small bag, so I'll probably pick that up as well. They DO have access to fresh water all day, as the dripper is running constantly, and Laurel drinks from it, although Lucy has not. Should I be syringe feeding her water for now? We do make sure the leaves on the pothos stay wet, the lowest the humidity has dropped is 30% and that was while we were at work. Since adding the humidifier next to the cage I haven't seen it drop below 45%, which the vet said was fine. I know once we add the fogger it will stay at a constant higher %. How do I lower the basking temp? Should I just lower the branch?
 
Raise the basking light higher. that will lower the tmep, or get a lower wattage bulb.
you can try to force water, but be super careful doing this as she can aspirate it.

calcium supplements are normally given when chams have mbd. if you post photos of her we can see how advanced it is.

as for the eye swelling then going away and rubbing on you.. she was cleaning her eye.
All chams do this. they bulge it out, move the eye around in the turret,and rub on things to remove debris from the eye.
 
Could the store not lend you a cage for Lucy? I'm afraid that if you keep them together you are going to end up with two sick chameleons.
 
Could the store not lend you a cage for Lucy? I'm afraid that if you keep them together you are going to end up with two sick chameleons.

moreover the stress of a new habitat + sharing the cage + the stress of hand feeding won't be good for the sick one! I'd rather put some plastic mash around a big plant with a couple of lights (spot+uvb) on top of it and use that as a temporary cage, it takes like 20 minute to build it!
like this

img1134m.jpg


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That is a GREAT idea for a temporary cage for her. I wouldn't have thought it :) I'll take a few pics of her once hubby gets home and post them. From there, maybe you guys can tell me more. I'm glad to hear the eye bulge was normal, it freaked me out today! Where is the best place to get a good price for a 2nd UVB bulb for her?
 
and as for the top of that cage, can I cover it with the same mesh, or will that not work for the UVB bulb?
 
Poor Lucy.
God bless you for taking on the care of the poor creature.
My vet always recommends a 5 degree increase in basking temperatures while a cham is ill, to help them recover. For this reason I wouldn't lower the basking temps for now, at least.

Coccidia damage the lining of the intestines, so she may not be ready for rough solid food like crickets or any solids just yet.
Keeping her hydrated is extremely important.
An eyedropper with water would probably encourage her to drink.
It may even help to get Pedialyte and dilute it by 50% to give her once a day. You can ask the vet if this would be advisable.

You could try some Phoenixworms which contain a good amount of calcium and are soft.
If you're not squeamish, you can put 4 or 5 Phoenixworms into the syringe that you give her calcium with, with the calcium liquid and they'll squeeze out along with the calcium--so she gets a bit of nutritious food with the calcium.


I have heard of people using Bene-bac Plus to help restore the intestinal flora when treating for coccidia in particular. It could be added to the syringe, too.
http://www.amazon.com/Bene-Bac®-Pet...e=UTF8&qid=1360112224&sr=8-1&keywords=benebac

http://www.amazon.com/Bene-Bac-Plus...e=UTF8&qid=1360112224&sr=8-2&keywords=benebac
(Apparently the Amazon writer never heard of probiotics )

For UVB bulbs:
http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-18-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/

Here is some good info, written by a chamkeeping vet (and forum member), about MBD
https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/


Hope Lucy is feeling better soon and that you'll ask questions and let us know how things go.
 
here are a few pictures we got tonight. She was pretty mad in them, it was after administering her eye meds and liquid calcium supplement. We took her into the bathroom and steamed it up nicely, let her soak in the high humidity until the water ran cold. After that, we gave her the meds, and she opened BOTH eyes for a few minutes! YAY! We were even able to get her to eat 3 tiny crickets. We did have to put them in her mouth though, so I have yet to see her actually use her tongue. She seemed to perk up some, and climbed around and checked out her new home. She has a decent grip, and i even saw her hanging by her back two feet to grab another vine. You can see how skinny she is.
 

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It's good that she ate the crickets. If a cham is really sick, they sometimes spit the food out.
Maybe when her eyes are better she will use her tongue. MBD also affects the tongue, so that may be partly to blame, as well.
It's good that her grip is strong, as she sounds a bit better off than I had imagined.
Your steamy bathroom method is similar to what is often recommended on the forum for dehydrated chams.
To encourage a cham to drink, putting a plant into the shower with warm not hot water and aiming the spray at the wall so the splashed droplets settle on the plant is the method often suggested.
I hope Lucy progresses in leaps and bounds.
Glad you updated and added some pictures.
Hope you'll continue to update as she improves.
 
Does it look like MBD to you guys, or do you think she's just really skinny and sick from the coccidia/eye infection?
 
Does it look like MBD to you guys, or do you think she's just really skinny and sick from the coccidia/eye infection?

A question that may help about the MBD...from the pics she doesn't look as if its very advanced to me. Did both these chams come from the same source and did the pet shop have them for the same amount of time? What sort of diet, dusting and gutloading did the pet shop do and how long were they there? It isn't all that likely that one cham is healthy (no MBD) and the other one isn't (active MBD) in a short time. MBD takes time to develop, and it is a common problem so vets often decide extra calcium is a good thing. MBD can be halted with proper diet and dusting and can take a little time to correct. If this were my cham and not knowing much about their past treatment (before the pet shop started caring for them), I think I'd focus on treating her eye infection and the parasites, keeping her well hydrated, and giving her properly gutloaded and dusted feeders. The MBD if its there will not progress and probably won't affect her more in future.
 
Update

So, we have had Lucy for a few weeks, and she is still not too much better. She is active, climbing lots, but her right eye will still not open, and her left WILL open, although she keeps it closed most of the time. We are giving her water through a dropper by hand daily, and feeding her crickets by coaxing her to open her mouth and popping them in. I am at a loss of what to do. When we adopted her, we were only told that she would have eye issues, but besides that, she would be fine. We were not prepared to take on a chameleon that had to be coaxed to eat every meal, and given water through a bottle like a baby. I am afraid we are not the best owners for her. With two dogs, a two year old, and another chameleon, I do not see us having the time to do this every night for the next 8 - 10 years. Can anyone offer advice, or maybe even get me in touch with someone who may be able to rescue her?:(
 
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