new here- equipment help please.
- Thread starter hollypops
- Start date
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Overdosing....
I suppose if you stuck a cham right underneath a 10.0 Reptisun 24/7 it could have a problem. But that is not going to happen in a properly set up cage. They don't just sit right under it all day. I'd like to know what symptoms or health issues a "cooked" cham has. The only "cooked" chams I've seen are ones exposed to heat sources or the compact UVB lights that put out light in the wrong UVB ranges. You have to remember that the screen top drastically reduces the output of the light penetration into the cage. A young growing cham that is roaming around a lot may not get enough UVB from a 5.0 in a given day. It's output goes down to 12" with no screen or cover between it and the cham. A 5.0 light or even two for that matter did not provide enough UVB in my 36 inch tall cages for a growing juvenile. I tried it years ago and had issues. They did not spend enough time within 12 inches of the light during the day. The issues totally reversed and never occurred again after switching to two 10.0 lights.
I suppose if you stuck a cham right underneath a 10.0 Reptisun 24/7 it could have a problem. But that is not going to happen in a properly set up cage. They don't just sit right under it all day. I'd like to know what symptoms or health issues a "cooked" cham has. The only "cooked" chams I've seen are ones exposed to heat sources or the compact UVB lights that put out light in the wrong UVB ranges. You have to remember that the screen top drastically reduces the output of the light penetration into the cage. A young growing cham that is roaming around a lot may not get enough UVB from a 5.0 in a given day. It's output goes down to 12" with no screen or cover between it and the cham. A 5.0 light or even two for that matter did not provide enough UVB in my 36 inch tall cages for a growing juvenile. I tried it years ago and had issues. They did not spend enough time within 12 inches of the light during the day. The issues totally reversed and never occurred again after switching to two 10.0 lights.
Jason4045
New Member
Tanning salons use UVB tubes, and they limit the time you can tan. You can over tan and get "sun poisoning", could a cham have the same effect? I have actually heard a story of a woman who overly tanned actually cooking her internal organs from over exposure to tanning beds. That happened because she went to like 4 salons and tanned repetedly over a matter of days. Could it be possible to cook your cham with to much UVB in the same manor? I'm not trying to start a debate as your methods have worked for you with great results, yet just wondering if it is fact or fiction. Wow this topic kinda got off track...
veiledchameleonyoshi
New Member
Tanning salons use UVB tubes, and they limit the time you can tan. You can over tan and get "sun poisoning", could a cham have the same effect? I have actually heard a story of a woman who overly tanned actually cooking her internal organs from over exposure to tanning beds. That happened because she went to like 4 salons and tanned repetedly over a matter of days. Could it be possible to cook your cham with to much UVB in the same manor? I'm not trying to start a debate as your methods have worked for you with great results, yet just wondering if it is fact or fiction. Wow this topic kinda got off track...
I saw that on mythbusters
It was BUSTED.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Not sure of the correlation...
I'm not sure what the strength is for salon tanning tubes is. I know that I am exposed to the Reptisun 10.0 tubes a lot with all the cage cleaning I do and I've never gotten a hint of a tan from them. My guess is that the tanning salon UVB strength is dramatically different than these reptile tubes.
All I can say is that I have never seen an unhealthy sign from the use of 10.0 tubes in my own caging. I don't have any skin cancer going on in my older chams. No eye issues. I have seen faster and better recovery in females after egg laying after switching from 5.0 to 10.0 tubes. In my applications I have only seen positive results. But I am saying that every person has to evaluate his/her own situation. Even the type of hood you use can affect the output into the cage. Different hoods reflect the light differently. It's not a one size fits all thing here. There are many components in the equation. Each individual has the challenge of exploring the options and figuring out what makes sense for their situation. And to make a change at the first sign that what you are doing is not working.
I'm not sure what the strength is for salon tanning tubes is. I know that I am exposed to the Reptisun 10.0 tubes a lot with all the cage cleaning I do and I've never gotten a hint of a tan from them. My guess is that the tanning salon UVB strength is dramatically different than these reptile tubes.
All I can say is that I have never seen an unhealthy sign from the use of 10.0 tubes in my own caging. I don't have any skin cancer going on in my older chams. No eye issues. I have seen faster and better recovery in females after egg laying after switching from 5.0 to 10.0 tubes. In my applications I have only seen positive results. But I am saying that every person has to evaluate his/her own situation. Even the type of hood you use can affect the output into the cage. Different hoods reflect the light differently. It's not a one size fits all thing here. There are many components in the equation. Each individual has the challenge of exploring the options and figuring out what makes sense for their situation. And to make a change at the first sign that what you are doing is not working.
Jason4045
New Member
Catherine,
Thank you for taking the time to sum that all up. I myself have not sceen any issues using the 5.0's and can't really see anyone cooking a cham using a 10.0 output bulb aswell. The 10.0 bulb I assume would just be that much closer to natural sunlight.
-Jay
summoner12
Avid Member
The hood has a lot to do with it. Unless the hood has aluminum or polished metal as its reflector, the UVB will not be reflected. Painted plastic to resemble metal won't reflect UVB.
chamelisa
New Member
Welcome to the forums Hollypops.
For years the Reptisun 5.0s have held their good reputation among hobbyists. If I ever had to go back to using artificial lighting, I'd go with those.
I used to keep my chameleons indoors. The fixtures were purchased from Orchard Supply Hardware for about $14 and they were self-ballasted and they held two 48" tubes. I would use one Reptisun 5.0 and one warmer colored light tube for the babies. Adults had two Reptisun 5.0 tubes in theirs.
I have never used the 10.0s so I don't know how effective they are. Hopefully one of the members will get a few minutes to take photos and post readings for comparison so we can learn the facts about the lights.
summoner12
Avid Member
Just some info...
The amount of UV you will be exposed to in a tanning bed is quite different than that of your room full of chameleon cages. If you've ever seen a tanning bed, you lay on a bed of lamps. The lamps are within close proximity to the user of the bed. Causing the skin to tan. Tanning is from exposure to large amounts of UVA radiation. It takes both UVA and UVB to give you a tan... But you need a large amount of exposure.
The amount of UV you will be exposed to in a tanning bed is quite different than that of your room full of chameleon cages. If you've ever seen a tanning bed, you lay on a bed of lamps. The lamps are within close proximity to the user of the bed. Causing the skin to tan. Tanning is from exposure to large amounts of UVA radiation. It takes both UVA and UVB to give you a tan... But you need a large amount of exposure.
summoner12
Avid Member
The 10.0 bulb I assume would just be that much closer to natural sunlight.
-Jay
This would be a bad assumption.
5.0 and 10.0 aren't measures of how pure the light is. It is the percentage of UVB output. Meaning how much UVB there is, not the quality.
If you take a look at this Link to the UV Guide, you will see how the electromagnetic spectrum is split up. Looking at the side of the box your Reptisun came in, you will see a graph. This is showing the quantity of each wave length in the light you purchased. There are dips and spikes, seeing a lot of everything would be a good 'quality' light.
summoner12
Avid Member
Some Ideas...
I really do think you should read the UV Guide website. I think you could learn a lot and maybe save some money AND provide better light to your chams.
This is a quote from "The 2005 Reptile Lighting Survey" on the UV guide website:
"Lindgren developed the concept of a “D3 Yield Index” – a comparison between the vitamin D-producing ability of a lamp with that of the sun. Among the lamps he tested, were several fluorescent lamps currently on sale in the UK: the Exo Terra Repti Glo 2.0, 5.0 and 8.0, and the Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0. He found the Reptisun 5.0 to have the highest D3 Yield Index of all the strip lamps he tested, owing to a high output in the 290 - 315nm range. However, the Repti Glo 8.0 and 5.0 also performed well compared with other lamps in the test. "
I think if you arranged your cages in a way that was more efficient your chams wouldn't have MBD issues.
It sounds like you have a lot of Pardalis. They seem to be very good at determining there UVB intake very well according to some studies. If your chams don't bask in the UVB lamps much, it is because they know it is too intense. This then means they don't bask in a heat lamp as much either. D3 is a process of heat and UVB exposure. If the cham is getting a 'fair amount' of UVB low in his cage without the heat... he is not producing as much D3. If he senses the lack of D3 he will then be forced to bask in less then ideal conditions.
I think it is a sensible conclusion that if you have a lot of chameleons it is a good idea to make the operation efficient and streamline. 5.0 lamps cost less than 10.0 lamps. Lower wattage heat lamps cost less to operate and lower wattage heat lamps draw the chameleon to the top of the cage. If the chameleon is at the top of the cage basking he is then close to the UVB lamp. This then ensures the animal to get the proper exposure of heat and UVB. In reference to the quote above, a 5.0 seems to have the highest 'D3 yield index', so basking with this lamp is effective. It might be why people have used them as a staple for quite some time.
BTW I have never had an MBD issue with a 5.0 Reptisun lamp nor have many people I have met.
I really do think you should read the UV Guide website. I think you could learn a lot and maybe save some money AND provide better light to your chams.
This is a quote from "The 2005 Reptile Lighting Survey" on the UV guide website:
"Lindgren developed the concept of a “D3 Yield Index” – a comparison between the vitamin D-producing ability of a lamp with that of the sun. Among the lamps he tested, were several fluorescent lamps currently on sale in the UK: the Exo Terra Repti Glo 2.0, 5.0 and 8.0, and the Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0. He found the Reptisun 5.0 to have the highest D3 Yield Index of all the strip lamps he tested, owing to a high output in the 290 - 315nm range. However, the Repti Glo 8.0 and 5.0 also performed well compared with other lamps in the test. "
I think if you arranged your cages in a way that was more efficient your chams wouldn't have MBD issues.
It sounds like you have a lot of Pardalis. They seem to be very good at determining there UVB intake very well according to some studies. If your chams don't bask in the UVB lamps much, it is because they know it is too intense. This then means they don't bask in a heat lamp as much either. D3 is a process of heat and UVB exposure. If the cham is getting a 'fair amount' of UVB low in his cage without the heat... he is not producing as much D3. If he senses the lack of D3 he will then be forced to bask in less then ideal conditions.
I think it is a sensible conclusion that if you have a lot of chameleons it is a good idea to make the operation efficient and streamline. 5.0 lamps cost less than 10.0 lamps. Lower wattage heat lamps cost less to operate and lower wattage heat lamps draw the chameleon to the top of the cage. If the chameleon is at the top of the cage basking he is then close to the UVB lamp. This then ensures the animal to get the proper exposure of heat and UVB. In reference to the quote above, a 5.0 seems to have the highest 'D3 yield index', so basking with this lamp is effective. It might be why people have used them as a staple for quite some time.
BTW I have never had an MBD issue with a 5.0 Reptisun lamp nor have many people I have met.
Jason4045
New Member
I was not implying the quality of UVB yet the quantity. I understand the 10.0 would provide more UVB radaition in comparison to the 5.0. I was trying to state that the output of the 10.0 would more closely mimic that of the natural unfiltered sun, as far as the higher level of UVB radaition.Is the suns UVB output not greater then that of a 5.0 bulb? I am not highly educated on this matter and appriciate you taking the time to explain how UVB works and is measured. I will read over the guides you have provided to help me gain a better understanding.
Thanks,
-Jay
summoner12
Avid Member
Some Meter Readings
The sun hasn't come out yet in my neck of the woods, so I can't get a UVB reading on the sun to show what nature has to provide. However I did take some readings last night from my five month old ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tubes in my dual lamp lighting fixture with screen filtering out some UV. I normally use these lamps with nothing filtering UV. I do not keep a screen on these lamps because the provide UVB for my free range Melleri, Lenny. The lamps are out of his reach and at a distance that provides the correct amount of UV for a forest dwelling chameleon.
I have taken a quote from the UV Guide website:
"Rainforest Species
Rainforest species such as some types of chameleon naturally avoid any such high exposure. They need UVB, but at much lower levels. Fig. 8. This Globifer's Chameleon seeks out dappled shade Their more sensitive skins manufacture all the vitamin D3 which they need from brief periods of basking early and late in the day, and the diffused and reflected ultraviolet light permeating the rainforest shade. All species of chameleon have different requirements, but authors vary, too, in their recommendations. The one scientific study we are aware of addresses egg hatchability in Panther Chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) and the authors suggest that a low level of UVB (a gradient between 15-33uW/cm² as measured with a Solarmeter 6.2) supplied for 12 hours a day is optimal. High levels are seen to be harmful.14,19 Our experiences are similar to these findings; one of the current authors maintains gradients of up to 30uW/cm² in all his chameleon vivaria."
According to studies it seems high levels are not needed for chameleons and that they avoid such light. It might explain why people have animals that stay low in the cage or 'sleep' during the day. If the chameleon is avoiding the light it would make sense why they have developed MBD. As you can see below the UVB output is quite high even at 12". As the chameleon gets higher in the enclosure it is exposed to high levels of UVB.
Here is a base reading with contact of the lens to the lamp. Keep in mind, in direct sunlight two weeks ago at 1pm I measure the sun to be putting out 300uW/cm2 (oh and these lamps are five months old):
Here is a base reading contacting the screen that is contacting the tube. If a young chameleon were walking around on the screen (as young chams like to do) it would be getting a LOT of UV radiation exposure
:
12" with screen:
10" with screen:
8" with screen (almost seems closer to 9"):
6" with screen:
4" with screen:
This is roughly the install date. The second lamp has "10-24-08?" on it to remind me that I procrastinated about writing the date on the lamp. This was all right about the time that I was moving.
hehe, this depends on the day... but yes in general a 5.0 is not as intense as the sun. As I pointed out before, the D3 yield index is important. It seems the 5.0 lamp is best.
Remember that a chameleon doesn't bask all day. They only come out for short bits to 'charge up' on UVB. Since we subject them to UVB all day providing the right amount is critical. As the quote above said, it seems that chameleons only need 15-33uW/cm2. I was told recently that through more studies it has been determined that levels of UVB up to 50 might be suitable. A fresh 5.0 should (I haven't checked) provide this level near the basking area. This is why it is a good idea to create a basking spot for your cham that draws them high in the cage. Your animal will then be subjected to both UVA, UVB and heat. Finding the heat balance isn't too hard and if using a 5.0, you will get good results. Many people in the hobby have been doing this successfully for quite some time.
Welcome to the forums Hollypops.
For years the Reptisun 5.0s have held their good reputation among hobbyists. If I ever had to go back to using artificial lighting, I'd go with those.
I used to keep my chameleons indoors. The fixtures were purchased from Orchard Supply Hardware for about $14 and they were self-ballasted and they held two 48" tubes. I would use one Reptisun 5.0 and one warmer colored light tube for the babies. Adults had two Reptisun 5.0 tubes in theirs.
I have never used the 10.0s so I don't know how effective they are. Hopefully one of the members will get a few minutes to take photos and post readings for comparison so we can learn the facts about the lights.
The sun hasn't come out yet in my neck of the woods, so I can't get a UVB reading on the sun to show what nature has to provide. However I did take some readings last night from my five month old ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tubes in my dual lamp lighting fixture with screen filtering out some UV. I normally use these lamps with nothing filtering UV. I do not keep a screen on these lamps because the provide UVB for my free range Melleri, Lenny. The lamps are out of his reach and at a distance that provides the correct amount of UV for a forest dwelling chameleon.
I have taken a quote from the UV Guide website:
"Rainforest Species
Rainforest species such as some types of chameleon naturally avoid any such high exposure. They need UVB, but at much lower levels. Fig. 8. This Globifer's Chameleon seeks out dappled shade Their more sensitive skins manufacture all the vitamin D3 which they need from brief periods of basking early and late in the day, and the diffused and reflected ultraviolet light permeating the rainforest shade. All species of chameleon have different requirements, but authors vary, too, in their recommendations. The one scientific study we are aware of addresses egg hatchability in Panther Chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) and the authors suggest that a low level of UVB (a gradient between 15-33uW/cm² as measured with a Solarmeter 6.2) supplied for 12 hours a day is optimal. High levels are seen to be harmful.14,19 Our experiences are similar to these findings; one of the current authors maintains gradients of up to 30uW/cm² in all his chameleon vivaria."
According to studies it seems high levels are not needed for chameleons and that they avoid such light. It might explain why people have animals that stay low in the cage or 'sleep' during the day. If the chameleon is avoiding the light it would make sense why they have developed MBD. As you can see below the UVB output is quite high even at 12". As the chameleon gets higher in the enclosure it is exposed to high levels of UVB.
Here is a base reading with contact of the lens to the lamp. Keep in mind, in direct sunlight two weeks ago at 1pm I measure the sun to be putting out 300uW/cm2 (oh and these lamps are five months old):
Here is a base reading contacting the screen that is contacting the tube. If a young chameleon were walking around on the screen (as young chams like to do) it would be getting a LOT of UV radiation exposure
12" with screen:
10" with screen:
8" with screen (almost seems closer to 9"):
6" with screen:
4" with screen:
This is roughly the install date. The second lamp has "10-24-08?" on it to remind me that I procrastinated about writing the date on the lamp. This was all right about the time that I was moving.
hehe, this depends on the day... but yes in general a 5.0 is not as intense as the sun. As I pointed out before, the D3 yield index is important. It seems the 5.0 lamp is best.
Remember that a chameleon doesn't bask all day. They only come out for short bits to 'charge up' on UVB. Since we subject them to UVB all day providing the right amount is critical. As the quote above said, it seems that chameleons only need 15-33uW/cm2. I was told recently that through more studies it has been determined that levels of UVB up to 50 might be suitable. A fresh 5.0 should (I haven't checked) provide this level near the basking area. This is why it is a good idea to create a basking spot for your cham that draws them high in the cage. Your animal will then be subjected to both UVA, UVB and heat. Finding the heat balance isn't too hard and if using a 5.0, you will get good results. Many people in the hobby have been doing this successfully for quite some time.
Jason4045
New Member
That was quite a bit of information, and its all starting to make sense. Thanks Kevin.
-Jay
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Thanks for the info
Thanks for the information....It certainly illustrates why I don't use 10.0 lamps on babies or juvies that like to walk around on the screen top. I use them on 6 month and older chams who don't spend any time walking upside down on the screen. The way I have my set ups with plants and branches my chams are 10 inches to 20 inches away the majority of the time. They go below that range periodically to get crickets or when the female is getting ready to lay. I have heavily planted cages to retain humidity and for surface drinking area. The ambient temperature is warm enough that they don't have to stay glued to the screen top to get warm enough to metabolize food. They sit on top of the plants on branches that wind through the plants to bask. They don't stay low in the cage or hide under foliage to escape the light. They are very comfortable in the 10 to 20 inche range.
I did have MBD issues under the 5.0 lights. I felt like I would potentially overdose the cham on D3 to overcome the situation. I felt there was something wrong with the lighting if I had to do that. And I am not going to change things to force them to spend more time in the top 10 inches of the cage to get more UVB from a 5.0 light. I want them to be able to use more of the cage. In nature they roam around and are in and out of the sun's UVB. The sun's UVB is the same at the top of a tree or shrub as it is on a branch three feet below or on the ground six feet below. They are not going to get the same UVB roaming in an indoor cage as they do roaming in nature. I'm still convinced that I need the 10.0 lights for health in my cage set ups. I've got my cages, lights, hood fixtures, heat sources, plants, branch positions and supplementation program working together in a way that yields success and health for me. The I won't be making any changes.
Can you do the same thing with a 5.0 light? People can use your information to determine light type and placement of basking lights, plants and branches depending on how they want to utilize the space of their cages. I think we can all agree that 10.0 lights are not suitable for babies or juvies that walk upside down on the screen top a lot.
Thanks for the information....It certainly illustrates why I don't use 10.0 lamps on babies or juvies that like to walk around on the screen top. I use them on 6 month and older chams who don't spend any time walking upside down on the screen. The way I have my set ups with plants and branches my chams are 10 inches to 20 inches away the majority of the time. They go below that range periodically to get crickets or when the female is getting ready to lay. I have heavily planted cages to retain humidity and for surface drinking area. The ambient temperature is warm enough that they don't have to stay glued to the screen top to get warm enough to metabolize food. They sit on top of the plants on branches that wind through the plants to bask. They don't stay low in the cage or hide under foliage to escape the light. They are very comfortable in the 10 to 20 inche range.
I did have MBD issues under the 5.0 lights. I felt like I would potentially overdose the cham on D3 to overcome the situation. I felt there was something wrong with the lighting if I had to do that. And I am not going to change things to force them to spend more time in the top 10 inches of the cage to get more UVB from a 5.0 light. I want them to be able to use more of the cage. In nature they roam around and are in and out of the sun's UVB. The sun's UVB is the same at the top of a tree or shrub as it is on a branch three feet below or on the ground six feet below. They are not going to get the same UVB roaming in an indoor cage as they do roaming in nature. I'm still convinced that I need the 10.0 lights for health in my cage set ups. I've got my cages, lights, hood fixtures, heat sources, plants, branch positions and supplementation program working together in a way that yields success and health for me. The I won't be making any changes.
Can you do the same thing with a 5.0 light? People can use your information to determine light type and placement of basking lights, plants and branches depending on how they want to utilize the space of their cages. I think we can all agree that 10.0 lights are not suitable for babies or juvies that walk upside down on the screen top a lot.
summoner12
Avid Member
I don't really know where to start, so I am going to start with what stood out as just 'wrong'. UVB is not the same in shade. The level of UV drops pretty quick. I don't know how you can make any claim without any facts. I think you are spreading nonfactual data and encouraging new keepers in the wrong direction.
I think there are variables you might need to address if you have issues with MBD from a 5.0 lamp. Temps too high at the top of the cage causing the cham to seek cooler temps low in the cage. Chams like to be up high if I remember right. So it makes a lot of sense for a cham to climb to the top of its cage. They feel safer up there. This works to our advantage. By there instinct to climb to the top we can then provide them with the correct UV. If the UV is too intense they will sense this and go lower to avoid over exposure. By subjecting them to the high levels of UVB you could induce them to OD on D3. Since they are smart enough to avoid the intense radiation they have not had an issue. Maybe you had a bad run of lamps. The data is there to prove that if you have the right output from a 5.0 lamp and you provide the basics your cham will be fine. Sure they roam around. My chams all roam around all day and I have never had MBD issues. They begin the day with some basking as they warm up from a cool night. They get the UV and heat they need and go about their hunting and patrol.
I just don't understand why you would blast that much UV into a cage that is only 36" tall. If your chams spend most of their time at the lower half to one third of the bottom of the cage, there is an issue that needs to be addressed.
summoner12
Avid Member
I am not sure I have a new 5.0 at the moment... I will check it out.
I would just like to point out that the lamps I was testing above were old and used for 5 months at 12 hours a day. They are still good for my use, just near the time when Zoo Med thinks they should be changed.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Please do not distort......
I said the SUN was the same on top of a bush as it was on a branch or on the ground. UVB from SUN is the same outside on different levels in the chameleon's world. You distorted my words to say UVB is the same in sun as it is in shade. I did not say that. I never mentioned shade. This concept is not true in an indoor cage. UVB output changes dramatically as you go down the cage. It eventually goes to zero even if not "shaded" by plant leaves. What I said is accurate.
You also distorted my words in several posts to say that my chams were on the bottom or lower third of the cage and that the extra UVB light or heat must be causing this. I said they spent most of their time 10 to 20 inches from the top. How can it be too hot if they spend their time 10 to 20 inches from the top? They certainly don't seem to feel blasted by UVB. You keep distorting my words to make it sound like they are exhibiting negative behavior due to the 10.0 light and/or the heat. You keep looking for some negative behavior to prove some negative result from the 10.0 light. None of my chams spend time below 20 inches other than to go get a cricket or to look for an egg laying spot. There is no negative side effect in my application of these light as I have things set up. I've got a lot of strong and healthy chams here.
I welcome all of your UVB output data on the 10.0 bulbs. I want people to have the information to make lighting choices, along with the choice of cages, hoods, plants, branches etc. and placement of all of these things. I feel that I have a right to talk about my positive experiences with this product. I've never told anyone they have to use them. I've merely stated that I had success with them. Please do not distort or misrepresent my positive experiences to uphold your conclusion that these bulbs should never be used.
I feel that I have valid questions regarding the adequacy of 5.0 lights in all applications. I am not convinced that all chams spend enough time close enough to get the necessary amount of UVB. We see a lot of chams come through here with MBD that do live in cages with 5.0 lights. We tell them to move their branches to the very top of the cage to make the cham spend more time there. We bump up the supplementation. That's fine. I just don't believe it's the only option.
I understand your data and the conclusions you have drawn. I also understand what I see in my own situation with chams and with other reptiles I keep or have kept. I've also made the switch with other reptiles that, according to habitat information, don't need the UVB from a 10.0. They also improved in overall health under the 10.0 even though what is known and printed about their habitat makes it sound like they don't need it. I have or have had several species of lizards that don't last long in captivity most of the time. I've managed to keep them healthy and for years beyond any life expectancy in the wild, let alone captivity. I believe the increase in UVB output beyond the stated requirements must have been part of it.
We do not know every component in nature that contributes to the health of a particular reptile. We are missing chunks of information. We adjust a lot of variables outside what we know the normal range to be in order to achieve good health. Like misting. Chams don't get rained on several times a day every day. Supplementation. They do not get any D3 powder or vitamins in the wild. Their body manufactors just the right amount of D3 from the UVB. Excess UVB does not cause overproduction of D3. The only overdosing of D3 that occurs is with supplementation. They get the right amount of vitamins from their diverse food variety in the wild that is impossible to replicate. What I'm saying is that I am open to the idea that the 10.0 light output provides something in captivity that may overcome some other things we can't provide. I also don't believe in messing with success. People who are happy and successful with 5.0 lights should stick with them. But I see no reason why someone like me, and there are others, who make the 10.0 work on a pretty widespread scale should change.
Please do test the 5.0. Use an older one like the 10.0 so the figures are truly comparable. If you do have a new one test it too. Doesn't the UVB data say that the output for lamps is a lot more during the first hour? I always burn them for an hour before using and would like to know for sure if this is true. If not, I can skip that step.
I said the SUN was the same on top of a bush as it was on a branch or on the ground. UVB from SUN is the same outside on different levels in the chameleon's world. You distorted my words to say UVB is the same in sun as it is in shade. I did not say that. I never mentioned shade. This concept is not true in an indoor cage. UVB output changes dramatically as you go down the cage. It eventually goes to zero even if not "shaded" by plant leaves. What I said is accurate.
You also distorted my words in several posts to say that my chams were on the bottom or lower third of the cage and that the extra UVB light or heat must be causing this. I said they spent most of their time 10 to 20 inches from the top. How can it be too hot if they spend their time 10 to 20 inches from the top? They certainly don't seem to feel blasted by UVB. You keep distorting my words to make it sound like they are exhibiting negative behavior due to the 10.0 light and/or the heat. You keep looking for some negative behavior to prove some negative result from the 10.0 light. None of my chams spend time below 20 inches other than to go get a cricket or to look for an egg laying spot. There is no negative side effect in my application of these light as I have things set up. I've got a lot of strong and healthy chams here.
I welcome all of your UVB output data on the 10.0 bulbs. I want people to have the information to make lighting choices, along with the choice of cages, hoods, plants, branches etc. and placement of all of these things. I feel that I have a right to talk about my positive experiences with this product. I've never told anyone they have to use them. I've merely stated that I had success with them. Please do not distort or misrepresent my positive experiences to uphold your conclusion that these bulbs should never be used.
I feel that I have valid questions regarding the adequacy of 5.0 lights in all applications. I am not convinced that all chams spend enough time close enough to get the necessary amount of UVB. We see a lot of chams come through here with MBD that do live in cages with 5.0 lights. We tell them to move their branches to the very top of the cage to make the cham spend more time there. We bump up the supplementation. That's fine. I just don't believe it's the only option.
I understand your data and the conclusions you have drawn. I also understand what I see in my own situation with chams and with other reptiles I keep or have kept. I've also made the switch with other reptiles that, according to habitat information, don't need the UVB from a 10.0. They also improved in overall health under the 10.0 even though what is known and printed about their habitat makes it sound like they don't need it. I have or have had several species of lizards that don't last long in captivity most of the time. I've managed to keep them healthy and for years beyond any life expectancy in the wild, let alone captivity. I believe the increase in UVB output beyond the stated requirements must have been part of it.
We do not know every component in nature that contributes to the health of a particular reptile. We are missing chunks of information. We adjust a lot of variables outside what we know the normal range to be in order to achieve good health. Like misting. Chams don't get rained on several times a day every day. Supplementation. They do not get any D3 powder or vitamins in the wild. Their body manufactors just the right amount of D3 from the UVB. Excess UVB does not cause overproduction of D3. The only overdosing of D3 that occurs is with supplementation. They get the right amount of vitamins from their diverse food variety in the wild that is impossible to replicate. What I'm saying is that I am open to the idea that the 10.0 light output provides something in captivity that may overcome some other things we can't provide. I also don't believe in messing with success. People who are happy and successful with 5.0 lights should stick with them. But I see no reason why someone like me, and there are others, who make the 10.0 work on a pretty widespread scale should change.
Please do test the 5.0. Use an older one like the 10.0 so the figures are truly comparable. If you do have a new one test it too. Doesn't the UVB data say that the output for lamps is a lot more during the first hour? I always burn them for an hour before using and would like to know for sure if this is true. If not, I can skip that step.
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PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Oh yeah...another thing...
Another thing I forgot to mention....My big black combo hoods.....part of the equation. The light tube is a full 2 1/2 inches from the part that rests on top of the screen. So if my cham is 10 inches below the screen he is 12 1/2 inches from the light. Out of range from the start with a 5.0 which only goes to 12 inches and can be cut in half in power by the screen depending on what you have. I've got a light meter somewhere around here. I hope I can find it. I did all the measurements when I switched from 5.0 to 10.0 long ago. At the time the measurements told me that a 5.0 was not enough and the 10.0 was safe. What I just wrote above leads me to believe that is still true with your readings at my distances. It also confirms my belief that a 5.0 is not enough for my cage sets ups......
Another thing I forgot to mention....My big black combo hoods.....part of the equation. The light tube is a full 2 1/2 inches from the part that rests on top of the screen. So if my cham is 10 inches below the screen he is 12 1/2 inches from the light. Out of range from the start with a 5.0 which only goes to 12 inches and can be cut in half in power by the screen depending on what you have. I've got a light meter somewhere around here. I hope I can find it. I did all the measurements when I switched from 5.0 to 10.0 long ago. At the time the measurements told me that a 5.0 was not enough and the 10.0 was safe. What I just wrote above leads me to believe that is still true with your readings at my distances. It also confirms my belief that a 5.0 is not enough for my cage sets ups......
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