New Baby Chameleon is dying I think.

[Lovemycham]

new here. Need some advice. The only vet in my area can't see me and the other is over an hour away. Not to mention I have a husband and 2 kids all sick with the flu right now. I doubt the chameleon would survive the trip anyway.


Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Ambilobe blue bar Panther. 3 months old. I've had him for 3 days.
Handling - Only twice. Both times to try to get him to drink.
Feeding - hasn't eaten since we've had him. Tried crickets and fruit flies.
Supplements - We have supplements but haven't used any yet.
Watering - We have a mister on a timer. It mists for a minute 4 times a day. We've turned it on a few extra times today to try to get him to drink. He has had some water but is definitely dehydrated.
Fecal Description - so far white or yellowish. Today there hasn't been much dropping at all.
History - seemed healthy out of the box.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - glass sides. Screen top. 3- 1/2ft tall. 2ft squared wide.
Lighting - we have a 10.0 uvb coil. A basking lamp. And 26 watt light. Lights are on from 8am until 6pm.
Temperature - hottest temp is 88 just under the lamp. The cage is between 80 and 85. At nights drops to 75. We have a thermometer in 2 places and a humidity detector.
Humidity - humidity has been between 50 and 80. We use a mister on a timer.
Plants - plastic plants and vines. Lots of them.
Placement - in our home office. in front of a window. Low traffic room that can be closed off if need be. Top of the cage is just over 5 feet off th ground.
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

He is not eating or drinking. Looks bad. Dehydrated. He hangs upside down near the basking lamp. Keeps his eyes closed most of the day. I've seen him drink a couple of times today. Hasn't eaten though. I'm really scared for him. We tried a shower but I think that just stressed him out. Other than that we hadn't touched him at all. Only opened the cage yesterday to feed and then remove the crickets. Today we cleaned out the bottom carpet thing because it was soaked. We have tried to feed him pedialyte/water mix with a dropper. He won't open his mouth or lick the drips at all. I know he should be seen by a vet. And money is not an issue but as I stated earlier I doubt he'd survive the trip. I've called the closer vet but they couldn't help. I have also contacted the place where we ordered him from but have not heard back yet. Any suggestions? I'm willing to do anything I can. He's very small and I'd be really devastated to lose him.

Pictures are helpful. Can't add pics for some reason.

 

[ChamDE86]

new here. Need some advice. The only vet in my area can't see me and the other is over an hour away. Not to mention I have a husband and 2 kids all sick with the flu right now. I doubt the chameleon would survive the trip anyway.


Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Ambilobe blue bar Panther. 3 months old. I've had him for 3 days.
Handling - Only twice. Both times to try to get him to drink.
Feeding - hasn't eaten since we've had him. Tried crickets and fruit flies.
Supplements - We have supplements but haven't used any yet.
Watering - We have a mister on a timer. It mists for a minute 4 times a day. We've turned it on a few extra times today to try to get him to drink. He has had some water but is definitely dehydrated.
Fecal Description - so far white or yellowish. Today there hasn't been much dropping at all.
History - seemed healthy out of the box.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - glass sides. Screen top. 3- 1/2ft tall. 2ft squared wide.
Lighting - we have a 10.0 uvb coil. A basking lamp. And 26 watt light. Lights are on from 8am until 6pm.
Temperature - hottest temp is 88 just under the lamp. The cage is between 80 and 85. At nights drops to 75. We have a thermometer in 2 places and a humidity detector.
Humidity - humidity has been between 50 and 80. We use a mister on a timer.
Plants - plastic plants and vines. Lots of them.
Placement - in our home office. in front of a window. Low traffic room that can be closed off if need be. Top of the cage is just over 5 feet off th ground.
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

He is not eating or drinking. Looks bad. Dehydrated. He hangs upside down near the basking lamp. Keeps his eyes closed most of the day. I've seen him drink a couple of times today. Hasn't eaten though. I'm really scared for him. We tried a shower but I think that just stressed him out. Other than that we hadn't touched him at all. Only opened the cage yesterday to feed and then remove the crickets. Today we cleaned out the bottom carpet thing because it was soaked. We have tried to feed him pedialyte/water mix with a dropper. He won't open his mouth or lick the drips at all. I know he should be seen by a vet. And money is not an issue but as I stated earlier I doubt he'd survive the trip. I've called the closer vet but they couldn't help. I have also contacted the place where we ordered him from but have not heard back yet. Any suggestions? I'm willing to do anything I can. He's very small and I'd be really devastated to lose him.

Pictures are helpful. Can't add pics for some reason.

Most importantly, get rid of the 10.0 UVB Light. It is way too strong for any chameleon and may be the reason why he's closing his eyes during the day. You need a 5.0 UVB bulb (preferably a fluorescent tube). It is quite normal for your new chameleon to not eat for a week or two due to the stress of his new location. The best thing to do is to leave him be for a couple of weeks with the exception of misting/feeding/cleaning until he adapts to his new surrounding. You should also look into getting a screen cage for your chameleon versus the glass aquarium. Reptibreeze or any DIY cages would work. If possible, please take a picture of your chameleon along with his enclosure. We'll have a better understanding on what is going on.

 

[distortionz]

Sorry to hear about your chameleon. From what I can see you are doing what you need to do.. sounds like either he's still just stressed from his shipping (i assume he was shipped because you said out of the box) or you were sent an unhealthy chameleon. Keep offering a variety of feeders.. different sizes.. At 3 months he may not be interested in the little flies any more.. don't know what size crickets you have... try some other stuff though.. mist mist mist.. if you don't have a dripper going try that.. I have some babies right now that freak out when misted and they only way they drink is from the dripper.. I didn't put one out at first because I was scared to drown them in the big drops.. but they started drinking now and are doing way better.. when you tried the shower you didn't have it spray directly on him right? That will just freak him out it should be aimed at the wall and only the mist off the wall should reach him.. I'd like to see the cage I know you said it had tons of vines.. I'm just trying to figure out why he wants to stay on the screen under the light.. also since it is a glass cage try to make it where he can't reach the screen.. or raise the basking bulb a little so he can't get so close/hot and dehydrate himself more.. also some chameleons just don't do well in glass enclosures being able to see their reflection I had a veiled before I kept in a glass cage and he was miserable everyday until I got him in a screen.. pictures would be very very helpful right now so try to figure that out.. hope he's all right


And yeah 10.0 is to much get a 5

 

[Seiryu]

Most importantly, get rid of the 10.0 UVB Light. It is way too strong for any chameleon and may be the reason why he's closing his eyes during the day. You need a 5.0 UVB bulb (preferably a fluorescent tube).

I am sorry, but this info is 100% incorrect. 10.0 UVB lights are just fine. In fact, some 5.0 lights are not strong enough when they are going through screen (which cuts UVB by about half). I've tested this numerous times with a UV meter.

I will say though, the coiled UVB lights in the past have caused serious eye problems in reptiles. Supposedly this has been fixed and people do use them with success, but the Tubes are much safer regardless and allows the uvb to cover more of the enclosure.

For the problem you are having, it's not uncommon for them to not eat for a few days, but with your description of him, something is definitely going on.

A few things to start with ; get rid of the carpet. Just keep the bottom bare, easier to clean and less chance for bacterial/fungal issues.

The cage is quite bit for a 3 month old. He could be stressed because it's just too much room. I usually don't move Panthers into cages that size until 5-7 months depending on their size.

Temp wise, you are a bit high. Try Ambient in the 70-77 range with a basking of 80-85. I also noticed you said he's in front of a window, which can cause severe temperatures if it's getting direct sunlight (think car out in 90 degree weather, but inside is in the 130's).

As for a trip to the vet. He should survive the car trip. Most people use boxes with a towel (no sticks or vines that can roll around and hurt him). They will generally take a nap. If he's survived the day, the car trip shouldn't be an issue. It's hard to say without seeing pics or being there though.

So my suggestion would be take him to a vet. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Lovemycham]

Hope these pictures can be viewed. This is how he looks right now. I'm so worried. thanks for all of your replies.

 

[Lovemycham]

I tried to add pictures. Not sure it's working.

 

[carol5208]

I tried to add pictures. Not sure it's working.

No pics! How are you trying to upload them??? I agree with the eating and some will not eat right away. The closing of the eyes is a definite issue though. It is possible that the chameleon came to you ill also. Did you get if from a reputable breeder, petshop, etc??

 

[jannb]

I'm so sorry to hear that your little man is not well. I agree with the statement about the light. I've had babies that even a newer 5.0 bothered their eyes. I would turn that light off untill you can get another one. I also recommend the Reptisun 5.0 tube style and hang it up several inches off the top of the cage. I would also lower the basking temps to low 80's. I bask adult panthers at 85 or 86 and babies should be kept cooler. I would not handle him until he's had a couple weeks to settle in. I'm attaching my blog for new keepers. It's how I have successfully raised veileds and panthers over the years. Good luck with him!
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html
Also here's a link on how to post photos. https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-post-photos-video-3609/

 

[Mike Fisher]

Cage too big, cage too hot. If he is dehydrated and won't drink you are going to have to get some water in him manually. A
chameleon usually won't eat when they get dehydrated, so get some water in him asap.

 

[Lovemycham]

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[Lovemycham]

Cage too big, cage too hot. If he is dehydrated and won't drink you are going to have to get some water in him manually. A
chameleon usually won't eat when they get dehydrated, so get some water in him asap.

I agree. He needs to drink. But how to I force some water into him? We've tried a syringe dropper and help drips of water right in front of him, even touching his face but he won't drink. Should I leave him alone now that his lights are off or keep trying.

 

[jannb]

Cage too big, cage too hot. If he is dehydrated and won't drink you are going to have to get some water in him manually. A
chameleon usually won't eat when they get dehydrated, so get some water in him asap.

Good call Mike! I have also had a baby that wouldn't eat because he was dehydrated. My boy Cooper when he was a baby. I gave him some super long mistings several times a day to get him drinking again.

 

[Lovemycham]

No pics! How are you trying to upload them??? I agree with the eating and some will not eat right away. The closing of the eyes is a definite issue though. It is possible that the chameleon came to you ill also. Did you get if from a reputable breeder, petshop, etc??

I used photobucket. I the I got it to work in one of my replies. I ordered him online from LLLReptiles. I researched them and they were highly rated.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I agree. He needs to drink. But how to I force some water into him?

Not force. Gentle coaxing. I first try to see if I can get a defense response by grasping gently behind the eye turrets with my left hand. Sometimes they will gape and you can get a few drops in. If that doesn't work, I use another method where you will probably need help from another person. I gently grasp the dewlap while another person holds the dropper against the lip margin. If they can get a drop to balance there, even better. Then I just pull the dewlap ever so gently to break the seal, and the drop will go between the gums. That will usually start a drinking response where you can just ever so often add another drop each time he opens his mouth slightly.


Be careful to only get the skin of the dewlap and don't be forceful or you can bruise them.

Don't overdo the amount of water, or they will regurgitate all of it. You'll have to do small amounts but several times daily.

 

[Lovemycham]

Image attached. It's sideways. He's on top of the leaves. Looks bad, I know.

 

[Lovemycham]

And here is his home.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Lighting - we have a 10.0 uvb coil. A basking lamp. And 26 watt light. Lights are on from 8am until 6pm.

What wattage is your basking bulb? His coloration looks like you might be slow roasting him. They get rather pale and monochromatic looking when they are too hot. If he is really tired and inactive, that can be a sign of heat exhaustion.

A glass enclosure needs extra caution about the amount of heat you put into it. The other problem is that they are more difficult to provide a heat gradient with enough of a cool area. They tend to stay warm everywhere so you have to be really careful not to overheat it. It can be really hard in the hot summer months where just the full spectrum light is enough to overheat the enclosure.

Don't get me wrong, glass can work, but you have to be really careful.

I'd get his basking spot in the low 80's for a day or two and see if he becomes more active, along with lots of misting. You can always bump it up a bit later, but I'd advise caution. I put my basking bulbs on dimmers so I can dial in the amount of heat rather than switching bulbs constantly.

Also looks like a female to me, but that's not gospel because it's been awhile since I kept panther chams. Also doesn't look as dehydrated as I was expecting. Could be just adjusting to the new home, but if it sleeps during the day, that's a big problem.

 

[Lovemycham]

Thanks for the info. The cage is in the 70s now for over night. He's sleeping alive but still not lookng too happy. I will change the bulbs tomorrow and try to get better temps in there. We opted for the glass because we have a cat. The cat rarely goes in that room and seems completely uninterested in it, but we didn't want to chance the screen enclosures. Tomorrow we will try to just leave him alone and get the temp better plus long mistings throughout the day. If he doesn't drink or gets worse, I'll bring him to the vet. Thanks again.

 

[fluxlizard]

Did you buy this lizard from a breeder or a dealer? I am guessing a dealer and would be interested in seeing if I am right.

In my opinion, neither your lighting nor the temperatures are likely to be the problem, nor the cage size. I can run through that list and say I have raised baby panther chameleons with all of your parameters. I use 10.0 UVB tubes standard, have raised montaine species (which should require less UVB than panthers) (melleri) from hatchlings under coil 10.0's in cages 12" high and they thrived, 80 would not be a problem for a panther baby and I've raised many with ambients in the low- mid 80s, 88 is fine for a basking spot, I've got a group of baby jackson's right now that were born the week before thanksgiving that I've been raising since birth in a 3' high x 2' x 2' cage, so there goes the big cage size thing. Larger cages can be a little tricky for a shy baby to find food or thermoregulate, or find water, but your problem sounds probably different- you don't have a shy lizard sitting in a corner, you have one up on top with eyes closed, and it sounds like it does drink on it's own, just not as much as you feel it should. If your baby blanches in color and gapes he/she is hot. If not, she is fine or so sick she isn't behaving normally. If she is not gaping or blanched in a cooler area of the cage, temps are probably fine. Your lizard is no longer a tiny baby either.

I think you have a lizard that either got a chill in shipping or banged around in shipping or has some other problem like coccidia that she arrived with that was possibly made worse from the stress of shipping and moving into a new home.

If it is just from a hard shipping experience and being banged around, the assist hydration several times daily will do more harm than good. It is better to force a misting situation so the lizard is stuck in a full mist situation for 20 or 30 minutes rather than assist watering. If it is thirsty, it will drink on it's own if it is covered in mist. If not, it needs a vet anyway.

The problem with assist hydration several times a day is that each time will stress the lizard. Stress could be the problem here anyway, and continual stress will only make things worse.

A dehydrated panther chameleon will have skin that has wrinkle ridges that stand up from the background- maybe only 1 or two along a side sometimes as it sits or moves. If yours does not look like something is sort of pinching some of the skin the skin into a tiny little ridge, it probably isn't severe enough dehydration to merit huge measures to correct.

If it were my lizard- I'd dismount the mist system, get a houseplant, put it in the bathroom bathtub, hang the mist nozzle over the plant high enough so the whole thing gets a good soaking, put the lizard on the plant and run the mister for 30 minutes or so. Believe me- 4 minutes is not enough sometimes to get a drinking response from a stressed chameleon. But usually 20 or 25 minutes will get nearly any chameleon to drink, even if not very thirsty, if it cannot escape the mist. It is just a reaction to the situation. But also, if it were my lizard and it was drinking some on it's own, I would let things be maybe. If it is only drinking when the mist is on, I'd probably do the 20 or 25 minutes in the tub once to make sure it was well hydrated. And I would only do that because it sounds like you may have an enclosure that will become a pond if you run your mister that long- if you have an enclosure with a drain, I'd keep things there for the long misting. If it was drinking only the drops on the leaves after the mister turned off, I'd probably take a plastic dixie cup, poke a pinhole in the bottom and set up a drip system with a catch bowl that dripped for about 20 minutes per day off of a leaf and into the catch bowl, and use it alongside the mist system. The main idea being to give the chameleon what it is already using and making it easy to use it.

Don't handle him/her any more than is absolutely necessary. Each time you handle, touch, or otherwise mess with her, it creates stress. A little if necessary is OK.

If you have a heat light for night to get that 75 degrees, stop using it. They can go quite a bit cooler without a problem and it is better for them and night heat lights are stressful for them.

If he does drink and then eat, If he were mine because he has had his eyes closed, I'd make sure the first meal had reptivite on it. Sometimes if young fast growing species like panthers do not have enough multivitamin in their dusting rotation, they get like that, closing the eyes a lot of the time. A single meal or two with a multivitamin will perk such individuals right up if that is the problem and you can then return to a normal rotation of supplementation.

A trip to the vet is a good idea.

Just my opinion- the others here could be right instead.

 

[Lovemycham]

I so appreciate everyone's input. He looked a little better his morning. Alert. Then he went back to closing his eyes. We decided to slightly lower the temp of the basking lamp and also the uvb for now. And we are going to mist for longer periods 2 -3 times today. Like a good 30 minute misting. We will try some crickets again. But other than that we at going to leave him alone as much as possible. Thanks again. I'll let you know how things go.