Need Help

[dinamite]

So I bought a female panther chameleon from someone who moved away but it turns out she is sick. She sleeps the whole day and will only wake up when I mist her and ocassionally. I took her to the vet and they conducted an exotic culture which turn out four pathogenic bacterias.
1) Pseudomonas aeruginosa-2+
2) Serratia marcenses- 2+
3) Morganella morganii- 2+
4) Proteus vulgaris- 1+
I had to buy Ciprofloxacin and treat her for 21 consecutive days, as well as BeneBac for once a week for 6-8 weeks to establish an appropriate amount of normal flora. However, it has been 8 days since her treatment began and does not seem to be showing a lot of results. She still sleeps most of the day and I have to orally feed her with Carnivore Care. I really need advice/help if anyone has been through the same, and if there are other remedies that can be taken overall. I've already spend over $300 in the test and medications and most likely will have to spend more in order to see what's going on. Any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[ataraxia]

Im not familiar with the bacterias found. it is very possible that she is closing her eyes from other issues. please fill out the how to ask form.

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?


Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.


Pictures are helpful

 

[dinamite]

Your Chameleon - Female Panther. With me for about a month.
Handling - once a day to administer Ciprofloxacin
Feeding - Orally Carnivore Care.
Supplements - providing carnivore care.
Watering - mist 3x/day, but do not see her drink.
Fecal Description -Brown with white tips.
Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?-yes
History -Not much, probably not well taken care off by previous owner.

Cage Info:

Cage Type -16x16x30 screen cage.
Lighting - 5.0 Linear Tube Reptisun and regular house bulb for heat on for 13hrs.Have also given her as much natural sunlight as possible, about 7-8hrs/day.
Temperature - 80 basking. 75 rest of the cage.Lowest overnight temp-65 degrees F. How do you measure these temps- with digital thermometer.
Humidity -70-80.
Plants - live plants, ficus and schefflera.
Placement -Chameleon room, raise about 3ft off the ground.
Location - Where are you geographically located?


Current Problem -Sleeps almost all day, will only wake up when I mist her and give her the treatments. She was diagnosed with 4 pathogenic bacterias, which are supposed to be sensitive to Ciprofloxacin.

 

[ataraxia]

what is her age? pics?

 

[dinamite]

she's about 7-8 months. I'll post pics tomorrow.

 

[kinyonga]

These 4 I think are quite normal to find in small numbers in the intestine in many animals...what I don't know is at what level they have to be treated. I would think that +2 or +1 might be low levels....maybe ferretinmyshoes will know or one of the vets on here?

I know you listed your husbandry...but what was done for her before you got her? Supplements? UVB light? Etc.?

Does the carnivore care contain prEformed vitamin A, D3, phos.?

 

[dinamite]

I know very little about her previous husbandry and it is my guess that the previous owner did nothing about her being sick.
Carnivore care does contain vitamin A, D3 and phos.
-I've attached a pic of her feces that I took today after I got home from work.

 

[ataraxia]

heres a link to help with dehydration

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/454-dehydration-solutions-force-fluid-tips.html

i would discontinue the carnivore care. a personal concoction i do is. weigh the animal. look a tthe chart provided in the link and draw appropriate amount of fluid (use pedialyte 1/1 ratio with bottled water). then place this fluid in a small container. depending on the size and age of your chameleon. grab some crickets (amount he would usually eat and maybe just a few more) and get ready for some juicy times. i find it easier to remove the guts by pinching off the heads and squeezing the guts out by applying pressure from the rear of the cricket to the front. place the gut into the container. i usually use a pinch of supplements. now in your case since you have using a product with preformed vitA, im going to with just plain calcium. mix it up and feed.

maybe she doesnt have anything to stimulate her. cage might be to small, not enough suitable climbing areas, improper lighting (could be old), any constant air being forced on her?.

do you have a laying bin in for her? has she ever laid? does she look plump? really need pics.

how old is the uvb?

 

[laurie]

heres a link to help with dehydration

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/454-dehydration-solutions-force-fluid-tips.html

i would discontinue the carnivore care. a personal concoction i do is. weigh the animal. look a tthe chart provided in the link and draw appropriate amount of fluid (use pedialyte 1/1 ratio with bottled water). then place this fluid in a small container. depending on the size and age of your chameleon. grab some crickets (amount he would usually eat and maybe just a few more) and get ready for some juicy times. i find it easier to remove the guts by pinching off the heads and squeezing the guts out by applying pressure from the rear of the cricket to the front. place the gut into the container. i usually use a pinch of supplements. now in your case since you have using a product with preformed vitA, im going to with just plain calcium. mix it up and feed.

maybe she doesnt have anything to stimulate her. cage might be to small, not enough suitable climbing areas, improper lighting (could be old).

do you have a laying bin in for her? has she ever laid? does she look plump? really need pics.

how old is the uvb?

I thought the juice I mix up was bad! Your is way past mine. i mix 1/2 pedialyte & 1/2 ensure, blend (yes my cham have their own blender) with crickets and dubia. Strain and feed. Add what ever supplements you need I usually add liquid calcium. I only make a few ounces at a time as i only keep it for 1 day after I make it. Don't use superworms, they don't blend up well.

 

[ataraxia]

hahaha. O'MY the strainer!! i was trying to go easy on the op..

LOL@superworms!

 

[laurie]

hahaha. O'MY the strainer!! i was trying to go easy on the op..

LOL@superworms!

we make such a great pair don't we? I am going to pm ferret (dayna) and ask her to have a look at this thread.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Where did they get this culture from to find those bacteria? Respiratory, fecal? Pseudomonas is the only one that may concern me as the others aren't generally pathogenic if this is a fecal sample. But pseudomonas isn't always pathogenic. You have to interpret the results of a culture in light of the clinical symptoms. Fecal cultures are most useful with GI signs like diarrhea or vomiting since bacteria will always be cultured from feces, sick or not. Cipro is not necessarily a bad thing since many reptile bacterial infections are susceptible to it, so if she had something else going on it may have helped. Make sure she stays well hydrated on it though.

However since she's not showing signs of improvement (remember reptiles get sick slowly and heal slowly) it may take more time, or there may be something else going on. Can you post a picture of her? Even at that age they can start producing eggs, or perhaps she has some underlying metabolic issues from previous lack of good husbandry. We might see something better in a picture. She may need some liquid calcium supplementation.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I am going to pm ferret (dayna) and ask her to have a look at this thread.

Found it

 

[kinyonga]

ferret...are +2's high enough to need treatment?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

ferret...are +2's high enough to need treatment?

It really depends on the animal and what symptoms they show rather than just a quantitative result. Pseudomonas is usually a more important concern as a respiratory or skin pathogen, rather than feces. But may indicate poor hygiene and poor water quality. By itself in a healthy animal I would not treat it because it probably isn't causing a problem. 2+ of one species may be normal or even low for an animal's gut flora, but for others it may be really bad. Fecal cultures are not usually done unless they are looking for something specific because what are you going to grow in feces? Bacteria. Usually lots of it so it's difficult to know which, if any, are actually causing a problem.

I know my answers aren't incredibly helpful, that's because a fecal culture is difficult to interpret all by itself. We only do them when we're looking for a certain thing, and in this case, if it were me I would not have done one just for a case of lethargy because it doesn't really fit. Not that your vet did something wrong, they did what they thought was right. But that's why I'd like to see a picture to see if there might be another explanation for her symptoms.

Let me do some research...

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Yep many vets agree that pseudomonas is only significant if there are clinical signs to match, such as significant, acute or bloody diarrhea. Otherwise it is not considered a pathogen in fecal culture. Let me see what I can find on the others...

Edit: nope, the others are not considered a concern either (not even with symptoms even).

Sorry to say it, but I'd start looking for other causes of her behavior because I don't think the fecal culture found it...but since you have the cipro and she has already been on it then you should continue giving it until it's done. Stopping now could prime an infection that wasn't detected to be resistant to cipro, and then if you need it later you're really in a pickle. You paid for it, might as well use it.

 

[kinyonga]

Ferret said..."Sorry to say it, but I'd start looking for other causes of her behavior"...this is what I was thinking but not being a vet I wasn't sure.

 

[dinamite]

It was a respiratory culture that was taken of her. It was basically like a swab that they rubbed inside her mouth and sent to the lab. The bacteria were what came out in the results. I have not been able to get a fecal done on her because she does not really poop that often (like once a week I would say) and the vet is 40 min from me. I will try to give her liquid calcium as well. I doubt that she has any eggs since at first I though she was egg bound and left her in a laying bin for a whole day and night a couple of times but nothing happened.
What I fear that her problem might be is a kidney malfunction but I'm no expert. These are two pics that I just took of her, sorry if the quality is bad.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Good to know! I assumed fecal since you posted a picture of feces and didn't mention any respiratory signs. In the case of respiratory culture - while Pseudomonas is a problem once it takes hold, it usually is an opportunist, meaning isn't strong enough to infect a healthy animal but takes the opportunity to grow when health declines for another reason. I would still look for an underlying reason, and would look at nutrition, housing, and other underlying disease. Definitely continue the cipro.

Bloodwork would help narrow things down, but I understand you've already spent a bit of money on tests already. Regardless I would make sure her husbandry is as perfect as you can get it and continue supportive care and hopefully you'll start seeing results soon. Antibiotics do not work as fast in reptiles as they do in mammals or birds.

 

[dinamite]

how would I go about a blood test? I really dont know a lot of procedures so I want to be informed as I can when I show up to the vet so that I also know that they're not just doing test that might not be needed.Do I request that her blood be analyzed? or should i do something else?
-thanks everyone for all the info. I was about to give up on this post since there were not many replies.