Need Help with Recently Imported Wild Caught Quad

[jajeanpierre]

I could use some advice on one of my recently imported wild caught Trioceros quadricornis quadricornis.

Imported December, 2014, purchased the end of January, 2015, directly from the importer. Picked up from store. Had been doing really well at store.

Initial weight: 66g
Current weight: 69g, high weight 72g

Cage: large breeder Dragonstrand, heavily furnished with live plants
Misting: Aquazamp, many times during the day. Temps good.
Lighting: Arcadia quads

Fecal: Currently, stool looks normal. Occasionally there is a strand of clear encasing rust colored bits that is attached to the urates. There is a picture of it in this thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/red-spots-urate-140118/
Fecal showed round worms, whip worms, flukes, flagellates and giardia. Wormed three times, each worming for three to five days in a row. Problem started after first worming.

Supplementing: Plain calcium, no phosphorus. Have given Repashy Low D a few times.

Diet: Offered crickets, roaches, silk worms, stick bugs and bb flies.

Problem: Just not doing well. Poor appetite. Thin. Has been just holding his weight. All my other wild-caught quads have been gaining weight. He gives me the impression he is a little dehydrated, but he has a very prominent and high arched brow, so don't know if that is an optical illusion or not. I assume it isn't, and run the mister a lot.

During his initial treatment for worms, he developed a partial blockage of his gut. Instead of having nice oval-shaped stool, it was bent and deformed, obviously going around something in his hind gut. This was the start of his going down hill. After many days of deformed stool, he passed a couple of small, round desiccated pellets. Stool returned to normal shape, but were small, indicating he wasn't eating much.

Started dropping weight in mid March to a low of 65g. Gave a five-day course of antibiotics. This is in the same family as the antibiotic Ralph gives his crashing wild caughts. Antibiotics started in the middle of his second treatment of Panacur, so was medicated for 7 days in a row between the Panacur and the antibiotics. Both Panacur and the antibiotic are appetite suppressants. Final 5-day treatment of Panacur started March 25th. During last three days of this last treatment, I started stuffing a mouthful of silkworms in his mouth when I medicated him. Also, I gave him extra water when I medicated him.

He started to pick up although appetite was still poor. Spent a day catching flies and he snapped them up, leaving the crickets. Gave him a few stick bugs that he ate. Stools were still small.

I ordered stick bugs and green banana roaches from Nick Barta and an order of fly larvae. He would eat the stick bugs but leave crickets. Finally one day, he cleaned up all the roaches and crickets in his cage. I thought we were home free. Stool was pretty much every day and larger.

I hatched out some blue bottle flies for him. I ended up having too many in his cage. He ate many, but perhaps they bothered him. I've vacuumed them out.

I've blocked off his cage so he can feel safer.

He's just not right. I suspect all the manhandling to medicate has taken it's toll on him. Damned if you treat, damned if you don't. I am hoping to have a stool sample to take in to the vet Monday. I would appreciate any help or advice I can get.

 

[kinyonga]

Can you post a recent photo of him please?

 

[pamnsam94]

Sorry to hear TianLong is still not thriving Janet. Have you tried a cool mist humidifier with him by any chance? It might be worth a try because it's a more gentle way to help with possible, however slight, dehydration. Even if your misting times and duration are good, he still may benefit from a boost in the ambient air humidity, especially considering the medications he's had to deal with. Many times I've seen really good results with certain individual animals while with others I didn't notice any obvious difference. Consider how in their native environment a cloud often envelops them for much of the day. When was the last time you had to "manhandle" him as you put it? Is he finished now with the antibiotics and de-worming meds? No doubt those things have been hard on him. Hope he starts doing well soon.

Perry

 

[jajeanpierre]

Can you post a recent photo of him please?

Kinyonga, Here's three recent pictures, the side shots March 30th and the head on March 23. You can see his eyes look a bit deep set. I'm not sure if it is dehydration or a very pronounced brow ridge over his eye. (What's that called? Orbital something or other? Orbital crest?) Or maybe it is a combination of both.

He's starting to have good sized poops pretty much every day. Maybe I'm just being impatient. I've covered up the front of his enclosure and decided to just not even look at him. There is an old saying about a watched pot never boiling... I'm taking a stool sample in today.

I'm just not crazy about his weight. I am lending him to another breeder, so I don't want to send him until he is right and I'm sure he'll survive.

Any tips would be appreciated.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Somehow the March 23rd picture didn't attach.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Somehow the March 23rd picture didn't attach.

I'm just not getting this right today.

 

[bobcochran]

One of the problems with waiting to treat for parasites to let the wild caught Cham regain strength,acclimate, and rehydrate is that while you're feeding the Cham as much as possible to rebuild strength, you're also feeding the parasites a lot. This increases the number and size of parasites, which also increases the number and size of the leasions they create in the intestinal tract, not to mention possible obstructions, from the large dead parasites in the gut. Think red spots in fecal matter.
He doesn't look excessively thin or dehydrated to me. It could be it's just going to take some more time to heal and things will turn out well. Doing another fecal certainly won't hurt. I hope things turn out well for him, good luck.

 

[jajeanpierre]

One of the problems with waiting to treat for parasites to let the wild caught Cham regain strength,acclimate, and rehydrate is that while you're feeding the Cham as much as possible to rebuild strength, you're also feeding the parasites a lot. This increases the number and size of parasites, which also increases the number and size of the leasions they create in the intestinal tract, not to mention possible obstructions, from the large dead parasites in the gut. Think red spots in fecal matter.
He doesn't look excessively thin or dehydrated to me. It could be it's just going to take some more time to heal and things will turn out well. Doing another fecal certainly won't hurt. I hope things turn out well for him, good luck.

Thanks.

Ya, it's a damned if you do, and damned if you don't scenario. I waited three weeks before I had him tested and wormed him, so about two months after he arrived in the US.

Just back from the vet's on another matter (bird) and took in a fresh stool sample he produced for me this morning.

He still has giardia and even some nematodes.

I couldn't believe he still had round worms--he was wormed multiple days in a row three times. The vet said that these are probably the worms that hadn't made it to his gut yet--Panacur doesn't kill anything in the body/circulatory system of reptiles, only parasites that have made it to the gut. Tapeworms are the only worms that end up going from mouth directly to the gut.

So, I have an explanation of why he isn't doing as well as I would like.

He starts another five days of Panacur in a row today, and I repeat five days in a row again 10 days after I finish this treatment. Wait a couple of weeks and then test again.

I've blocked his cage off so he will not see any humans. He really stresses when I have to medicate him, so I'll give him a complete break from humanity unless he is being medicated. I'll give him a bit of water and maybe a few little silkworms when I give his meds.

I showed the vet the picture of that urate with the bits of brown in it, and she is wondering if it isn't pieces of worms/parasites. She wants me to bring it in if (when) it happens again. She also said the mucus was from the gut, so not good. Wouldn't it be awful if it was tapeworm segments? They didn't move that I noticed.

I have two males from that December shipment. ShenLong came to me at 36g at the end of December. TianLong (my problem child above) came to me a month later wieghing 66g. ShenLong was wormed (three treatments, one dose per treatment) within about a week after my getting him. He also tested positive for giardia when I did get him tested later. ShenLong had so many things go wrong with him. He had every right to die. My vet is actually pretty happy with the care I gave him because she would have expected him to die. At one point, he was limp. Infections "somewhere" draining into two abscesses (or one massive one) around his pelvis. Infections--one the size of a pea--on the rubs on his dorsal crest. A really bad edema. Sink infection. He was a mess, but he still gained weight. Last time I weighted him he was 82g. At one point, he was pretty much imobile from pain to his hind end from the abscesses or from the pressure of the abscesses on the nerves around his pelvis. I had to put food on his perch so he could eat. Yet, he never dropped weight. Go figure.

The vet did say that if they were deficient of protein, they had a much harder time dealing with parasites.

I feel somewhat relieved I have a medical explanation. I was really afraid he just wasn't going to cope with captivity and just die on me. He might still, but I'll do everything I can.

Sorry, Perry, you'll have to wait a bit.

 

[bobcochran]

It sounds like you have a good vet and are not shy about going, certainly increases you and your quads chances of success. Good luck.

 

[jajeanpierre]

It sounds like you have a good vet and are not shy about going, certainly increases you and your quads chances of success. Good luck.

Thanks.

I've been really happy with this new vet. I switched after that useless x-ray.

Both of those two males from the December shipment have been in to the vet numerous times. Damned if you do (take them and stress them out) and damned if you don't. They've been quite a challenge. I'll be happier when they've lived for a year. I still look at them waiting for them to just up and die on me. They sure aren't fun. I learned a lot, though.

 

[pamnsam94]

How heavy were the nematodes and giardia? Big improvement over last time?

 

[jajeanpierre]

How heavy were the nematodes and giardia? Big improvement over last time?

Definitely a big improvement on the giardia. I'm not sure about the nematodes--she just commented that he is still throwing off a few, so I believe it is much less.

I'm going to end up doing every single one of the wild caughts at least one more time. I had been hoping to get away with doing a few in the collection, but it looks like I won't be able to get away with it.