Need help - Jackson Chameleon can not use tongue?
- Thread starter Rudy
- Start date
Rudy
New Member
Other than moon light, "from the moon" yes. All lights are off.
I can't get in touch with the vendor. Their voice mail will not accept messages, and both their websites are down. No email. Contact us form is not working.
Anyone know them?
http://junglejewelsreptiles.com/
http://beegerboxes.com/
Elizadolots
New Member
That's possible, or just that he's sufficiently off your normal cycle as to seem reversed. Just stick with your schedule and he should adopt it. In general, I think you need to give them a week to adjust to being in a new situation.
I really recommend misting him a lot during his "light" hours.
SonTigerPantherCham
New Member
May I also suggest changing your feeding schedule?
If I read correctly, you are feeding him at night?
When their body temps drop they don't digest their food. So it sits and ferments, so to speak.
The general rule of thumb is 3 hours to digest. I myself don't feed after 3, lights out @ 7pm.(that's mine, others have a different sched). I feed in the morning after lights have been on for an hour and a misting cycle has been completed.
As far as the tongue issue, I believe someone has already mentioned vit A
Anne
If I read correctly, you are feeding him at night?
When their body temps drop they don't digest their food. So it sits and ferments, so to speak.
The general rule of thumb is 3 hours to digest. I myself don't feed after 3, lights out @ 7pm.(that's mine, others have a different sched). I feed in the morning after lights have been on for an hour and a misting cycle has been completed.
As far as the tongue issue, I believe someone has already mentioned vit A
Anne
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
You might find this blog entry useful:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/232-tongue-troubles.html
As mentioned by others, gutloading and supplementing is important.
Rudy...see he recent posts in this thread...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/veiled-tongue-problem-22160/index2.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/veiled-tongue-problem-22160/index2.html
Allen Repashy
Member
I would suggest that you look towards Vitamin A (retinol) deficiency as a possible cause of this problem. Your info states you are not using a vitamin supplement of any kind, so I would focus on a good quality gutload as well as a vitamin or vitamin/mineral product that includes Retinol (preformed vitamin A) as an ingredient, or try a vitamin A (retinol only) supplement.
It is my hypothesis that this issue is similar to the STS Syndrome in frogs (short tongue syndrome) that is shown by an inability to reach prey with the tongue and poor ability to stick to insects when they are hit.
In frogs, Vitamin A has absolutely proven to reverse this condition. This is so far unproven in Chameleons because I don't think anyone has really thought of Vitamin A deficiency as a possible cause here.
I have had some encouraging feedback from people who have recently tried this approach with chameleons, but it will take a lot of contributions from keepers out there to prove or disprove the idea that this might also be the same situation.
It might also be possible that there is a difference in preventing the symptoms from occurring vs. reversing the symptoms if permanent damage occurs.
Allen
It is my hypothesis that this issue is similar to the STS Syndrome in frogs (short tongue syndrome) that is shown by an inability to reach prey with the tongue and poor ability to stick to insects when they are hit.
In frogs, Vitamin A has absolutely proven to reverse this condition. This is so far unproven in Chameleons because I don't think anyone has really thought of Vitamin A deficiency as a possible cause here.
I have had some encouraging feedback from people who have recently tried this approach with chameleons, but it will take a lot of contributions from keepers out there to prove or disprove the idea that this might also be the same situation.
It might also be possible that there is a difference in preventing the symptoms from occurring vs. reversing the symptoms if permanent damage occurs.
Allen
Rudy
New Member
UPDATE... Well, wish there was one... He is still not using his tongue. Gutloading and dusting food items with Calicum and Vitamin A. No change... Get's a lot of water. I watch him drink every morning, so he is not dehydrated. any other ideas, or is it too soon for a change? Have him about 3 weeks now, and he has had the problem with his tongue since the day I brought him home.
Rudy
New Member
I don't understan your responce.Allen Repashy
Member
Have you provided, or are you able to get him out in natural sunlight? Not that it is a cure all, but there is no substitute for it and if there is a vitamin D issue at hand that even 20 minutes a day can work miracles. This tongue issue really seems to be a puzzle, but sooner or later, we will figure it out. Don't give up on what you are doing, it can take a long time to reverse deficiencies.
Rudy
New Member
I have had him out in the sun. Not 30 min a day, but twice when cleaning his tank for a few hours.
xanthoman
Avid Member
chameleon dream team ?
ok, what the H is going on?
WOW!, a new keeper personally replied to, by "THE MAN, ALLEN REPASHY, HIMSELF", hopefully you recognize and appreciate the honor in that !
not to mention hoj, carlton, kinyonga and sandra chameleon, all in the same thread?, that is like having the dream team of reptile and chameleon husbandry at your disposal. i will be forever jealous !
i agree with Allen, that the issue is some how tied to vitaminA,
however, based on the assumption (here i go again), that the animal had at least some sort of supp regimen before you got him, and armed with the knowledge that at least, ime, over-supplementation is FAR more common than under-supplementation, especially where a jacksons is concerned, i also tend to agree with SandraChameleons blog, where she raises the possibilty that it could also be an issue of D3/vitaminA ratio, rather than just a straight forward deficiency of either.
imo, excess D3, has long been suspected of inhibiting the absorbtion/utilization of some vitamins, i believe this includes vitaminA, so i tend to suspect that it is the relation between the two rather the just a straight forward deficiency or excess of one or the other.
if his metabolism has changed in a way that prevents absorption of vitaminA or anything else for that matter, then simply giving more of the deficient item may not be enough.
my observations;
1. its not your cage, its your animals cage, you dont have to live in it, your life doesnt depend on it.
that being said, imo, a waterfall is not even a debatable option, its a known cham husbandry no-no, and a guaranteed pathogenic risk, if you want your jackson to thrive long term , then get rid of it, regardless of how cool it looks or convenient it is.
2. also a proven fact that chams of any age need uvb lighting, without it, they can go down hill at an alarming pace, and can be very difficult, if not impossible to correct, once it reaches a severe symptomatic stage.
i noticed in your help form that you had a clear glass top. UVB, DOES NOT PASS THROUGH TYPICAL GLASS IN ANY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS , so, if you are trying to deliver your uvb, by shinning it through glass, you may as well not even be using it. imo, if this is the case, i suspect it is a major player in the scenario, that you need to correct as soon as you read this post.
3. what would i do? given his unknown dietary and supplemental history, prior to you getting him, and given his present condition, you need to assume that there was some sort of inappropriate dietary/supplemental regimen before you got him. so it will be up to you to correct it and put his system back in balance. also, if gotten from from a keeper whose resources might have been stretched, and him knowing that the animal was headed for a reptile show anyway, its not unreasonable to assume that he also had improper lighting before you got him. lets face it, if someone is an uncaring for profit keeper, and he is overstretched and trying to prepare for upcoming said reptile show, then what difference does it make to him, if a cham goes without proper lighting for a week anyway.
so i would recommend,
before anything else, get rid of the glass top to fix the lighting issue, even a few hrs without uvb, could be a serious issue for for an animal that is already uvb compromised. also be sure you are providing proper uva as well.
since the onice is on you to correct any imbalances that may have occurred before you got him. given that you dont know his supplemental history, imo, the safest way to proceed, would be the most natural way. by this i mean only a tiny pinch of PLAIN cal each week, jacksons dont need that much, and there is a reasonable chance he has already had too much anyway. it could be playing a role as well, if his insides are starting to calcify, then that could lead to vitamin absorbtion issues. so, imo less is better than more. both too much D3 and/or too, much calcium have been known to cause interior calcification issues.
since his D3 history is at question, i would withold/discontinue any D3 supplementation whatsoever and like allen says get him at least 3 or 4 hrs of natural sunshine(even shade)a week. imo, intentional supplementation of D3 at this point is likely to do more harm than good. so if you minimize your plain cal and substitute natural d3 production instead of supplemental d3 this will bring both calcium and d3 into balance over time
just to be sure its available, i would use, (as allen suggested) a proformed vitamin A supp, sparingly, one time then hold off for a while to see how things progress.
imo you really should x the waterfall, set him up with a dripper of clean un-supplemented water and he really should be misted at least 5x a day if hand misting. you might want to consider getting a 1/2 gal pump sprayer at hd for about $8, much easier than a squeeze trigger sprayer. he needs his entire cage almost drenched, not just a little spritz, on the cham itself, i dont think the sprayer in the photo even holds enough for one full misting.
if you are not able to be there to mist that often during the day, he really should have an automatic mister like a mist king. you cant just get home from work and then mist him 5x that doesnt count, he needs it at spaced intervals throughout the day, imo all misting should be over by 2 hrs before lights out.
even adult jacksons have been known to relish the occasional fruitfly. so imo since interior calcification is a possible issue i would try to get him some hydei that have been raised on a vinegar based medium. if thats not likely to happen, you could occasionally inject a feeder with one drop of apple cider vinegar. vinegar contains acetic acid which breaks the bond of calcium and may help over time, if there are interior calcification issues
im all for avoiding the vet whenever possible, but given that these are a fragile species and given that you have little to no exp with this particular species and that time is likely of the essence you probably should see a genuine herp vet and probably request a blood panel and fecal float jmo
ps nice looking cage, interesting background, you of course used a waterproof and food safe finish instead of varnish to coat it with i hope.
ok, what the H is going on?
WOW!, a new keeper personally replied to, by "THE MAN, ALLEN REPASHY, HIMSELF", hopefully you recognize and appreciate the honor in that !
not to mention hoj, carlton, kinyonga and sandra chameleon, all in the same thread?, that is like having the dream team of reptile and chameleon husbandry at your disposal. i will be forever jealous !
i agree with Allen, that the issue is some how tied to vitaminA,
however, based on the assumption (here i go again), that the animal had at least some sort of supp regimen before you got him, and armed with the knowledge that at least, ime, over-supplementation is FAR more common than under-supplementation, especially where a jacksons is concerned, i also tend to agree with SandraChameleons blog, where she raises the possibilty that it could also be an issue of D3/vitaminA ratio, rather than just a straight forward deficiency of either.
imo, excess D3, has long been suspected of inhibiting the absorbtion/utilization of some vitamins, i believe this includes vitaminA, so i tend to suspect that it is the relation between the two rather the just a straight forward deficiency or excess of one or the other.
if his metabolism has changed in a way that prevents absorption of vitaminA or anything else for that matter, then simply giving more of the deficient item may not be enough.
my observations;
1. its not your cage, its your animals cage, you dont have to live in it, your life doesnt depend on it.
that being said, imo, a waterfall is not even a debatable option, its a known cham husbandry no-no, and a guaranteed pathogenic risk, if you want your jackson to thrive long term , then get rid of it, regardless of how cool it looks or convenient it is.
2. also a proven fact that chams of any age need uvb lighting, without it, they can go down hill at an alarming pace, and can be very difficult, if not impossible to correct, once it reaches a severe symptomatic stage.
i noticed in your help form that you had a clear glass top. UVB, DOES NOT PASS THROUGH TYPICAL GLASS IN ANY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS , so, if you are trying to deliver your uvb, by shinning it through glass, you may as well not even be using it. imo, if this is the case, i suspect it is a major player in the scenario, that you need to correct as soon as you read this post.
3. what would i do? given his unknown dietary and supplemental history, prior to you getting him, and given his present condition, you need to assume that there was some sort of inappropriate dietary/supplemental regimen before you got him. so it will be up to you to correct it and put his system back in balance. also, if gotten from from a keeper whose resources might have been stretched, and him knowing that the animal was headed for a reptile show anyway, its not unreasonable to assume that he also had improper lighting before you got him. lets face it, if someone is an uncaring for profit keeper, and he is overstretched and trying to prepare for upcoming said reptile show, then what difference does it make to him, if a cham goes without proper lighting for a week anyway.
so i would recommend,
before anything else, get rid of the glass top to fix the lighting issue, even a few hrs without uvb, could be a serious issue for for an animal that is already uvb compromised. also be sure you are providing proper uva as well.
since the onice is on you to correct any imbalances that may have occurred before you got him. given that you dont know his supplemental history, imo, the safest way to proceed, would be the most natural way. by this i mean only a tiny pinch of PLAIN cal each week, jacksons dont need that much, and there is a reasonable chance he has already had too much anyway. it could be playing a role as well, if his insides are starting to calcify, then that could lead to vitamin absorbtion issues. so, imo less is better than more. both too much D3 and/or too, much calcium have been known to cause interior calcification issues.
since his D3 history is at question, i would withold/discontinue any D3 supplementation whatsoever and like allen says get him at least 3 or 4 hrs of natural sunshine(even shade)a week. imo, intentional supplementation of D3 at this point is likely to do more harm than good. so if you minimize your plain cal and substitute natural d3 production instead of supplemental d3 this will bring both calcium and d3 into balance over time
just to be sure its available, i would use, (as allen suggested) a proformed vitamin A supp, sparingly, one time then hold off for a while to see how things progress.
imo you really should x the waterfall, set him up with a dripper of clean un-supplemented water and he really should be misted at least 5x a day if hand misting. you might want to consider getting a 1/2 gal pump sprayer at hd for about $8, much easier than a squeeze trigger sprayer. he needs his entire cage almost drenched, not just a little spritz, on the cham itself, i dont think the sprayer in the photo even holds enough for one full misting.
if you are not able to be there to mist that often during the day, he really should have an automatic mister like a mist king. you cant just get home from work and then mist him 5x that doesnt count, he needs it at spaced intervals throughout the day, imo all misting should be over by 2 hrs before lights out.
even adult jacksons have been known to relish the occasional fruitfly. so imo since interior calcification is a possible issue i would try to get him some hydei that have been raised on a vinegar based medium. if thats not likely to happen, you could occasionally inject a feeder with one drop of apple cider vinegar. vinegar contains acetic acid which breaks the bond of calcium and may help over time, if there are interior calcification issues
im all for avoiding the vet whenever possible, but given that these are a fragile species and given that you have little to no exp with this particular species and that time is likely of the essence you probably should see a genuine herp vet and probably request a blood panel and fecal float jmo
ps nice looking cage, interesting background, you of course used a waterproof and food safe finish instead of varnish to coat it with i hope.
Last edited:
Rudy
New Member
All food safe items we used in his cage. the stain is safe for pregnent women, so i think it should be ok.
I have a vet appt. tomorrow in the AM. He moves around well, just doesn't use his tongue???
Also, the top is screen, not glass. And I do have a UVB light and a 100w reptile heat lamp
I have had him out in the sun as much as possible, but getting a little cold for him now. that will need to stop.
My wife has been spraying the cage down 3-4 times a day. I also have a fogger. I ordered the mister, and it will be here wednesday.
I also setup a drip system. A water bottle, and a tube with a not in the middle. dripps one drop a second. a little fast, but the best I can do for now.
I have been feeding him by hand, and he seems to be doing ok... Will find out tomorrow...
