Necropsy results.

[Cainschams]

I decided to have one of my CH tavetana put down on Tuesday. Long story short she wasnt looking so hot one day. Eyes sunken slightly so I tried to hydrate her really well. It took a bit and some fussing but afterwards she looked somewhat better. Next day didnt look so well (eyes sinking, weakened grip, etc.) so I took her to the vet. He saw her, we talked about my husbandry etc. while he was inspecting her. Took her in the back room to put her on a different scale and I think show the "medical Dr." which I assume was Dr. Stahl. Gave him the details, which they were suprised it was CH, and came back. She was wiped out by that point just laying on a towel with her eyes shut while the Dr. went to get some things to force feed her and for possible impaction. I had told them she was cut out of the egg and was smaller than the rest and also that I rearranged her cage about a week ago and had not noticed much poop and her not eating as much as usual (which I passed off as cage rearrangement) this is the reason for the impaction medicine. Anyway he comes back in and I told him to put her to sleep and do a necropsy because I would only be taking her home to prolong her death and give her more stress.

The necropsy did not really show anything he said. No impaction, infact she was about to lay a nice one. He said all of her organs looked good but they did find a few very small spots on her liver. He said it could be from slight hydration. He asked if I wanted to have samples sent out. He said he doubted it would show anything except MAYBE signs of slight dehydration. I declined.

It seems the whole "it would not have made it in the wild" runt thought was in play through the whole visit and also todays phone call. She was definitely smaller than the others but not by a huge amount.

I would like to hear your thoughts and opinions on this. Also any other questions I should ask the vet.

Of course I would be appreciative of everyones condolences but I would like to keep this thread clean and on topic. Thanks

 

[lotus02]

I'm so sorry.

 

[lisa h]

She was the runt, but did she catch up in size as an adult?
My condolences, of course.

 

[jojackson]

Perhaps ive missed some other thread about that lizard, but I dont understand why you felt euthanasia was warranted? Looking 'wiped out' is understandble after much handling(vet check), Its stressful and at some point, the lizard 'gives up' as it would at the mercy of a predator that dosent kill it immediately.
If it was only a bit dehydrated, it may have improved? Did the vets say it was dying?
Was it a first clutch? breeder? perhaps it was simply metabolic burnout.
did you know it had eggs? Did the vets say it was dystocia maybe?
Was it actually impacted? not fed for some time?

 

[Cainschams]

She was the runt, but did she catch up in size as an adult?
My condolences, of course.

She was 9 months old. I was hoping she would catch op as an adult.

Jo, you havent missed any thread. I understand why you question my decision, I have the whole time. She was from a WC gravid female. She was eating but not as much as normal and also drinking. As the vet said she was about to lay a nice one. She could have been a bit dehydrated but I dont think that would cause the signs I was seeing. Weakened grip, hanging, sleeping etc. As i said no impaction and no eggs. There was no real diagnosis as well with none after the necropsy. She was going downhill quick even before the vet visit. With the only hope of shotgunning for impaction, dehydration and malnourished I felt I would only be bringing her back to "torture" her until she died, which I feel would not have been long after. The vet also had no hope for her but in the end that is what I decided.


Edit. Also the Dr. said she had slight edema in her lower abdomen???

 

[jojackson]

Ah ok. By 'lay a nice one' I thought you meant a clutch of eggs, sorry.
Edema is swelling/fluid.
Sounds to me like perhaps it was simply an uphill battle to begin with.
In nature the runts dont survive, this is the wheel of life. Id say it was only your captive care that allowed it to survive at all.
If all was ok with the necropsy then its a bit of a mystery, but my money would be on possible parasitic load.
You didnt mention if they checked the bowel contents or mentioned any in tissues.
Put it down to the learning curve, your desire to save it unnessary suffering is to be applauded. Whats done is done, no point in regret.
Best wishes

 

[Nosybe]

I'm sorry for your loss. At least you did not prolong her suffering.

 

[Kent67]

Any bloodwork done? No signs of puss or infection anywhere?

 

[Ryan123]

im sorry to hear this i just lost a female panther too im not sure why either???it is pretty much identical to how your died i havent a clue if she was a runt or not....mine laid then died a month later im still upset it happened friday in my hands the worst her organs looked fine also and she was just starting a new clutch too??? the eggs were super really tiny tho.....i never really noticed her eating and not much poop but she drank so much tho she was fine one day with looks and the next she looked like s**t

 

[GooglezNvincent]

im sorry to hear this i just lost a female panther too im not sure why either???it is pretty much identical to how your died i havent a clue if she was a runt or not....mine laid then died a month later im still upset it happened friday in my hands the worst her organs looked fine also and she was just starting a new clutch too??? the eggs were super really tiny tho.....i never really noticed her eating and not much poop but she drank so much tho she was fine one day with looks and the next she looked like s**t

Ryan you told me you didnt have a necropsy, you said you buried her.

 

[Ryan123]

after my mom did one then we burried her....im not about to argue over this tho it was s****y it was a learning experince that hopefully never has to surface again my mom did alot with disection in her life and she used to help a vet alot (but along time ago) we did some research on healthy necropsy images and she looked fine inside...ill admit we did this for learning experience and didnt want to be looked at as crap people so i didnt mention the before burring details sorry for any hard feeling i saw a thread of someone and a homedone necropsy and i thought we could see i didnt really want to send a dead cham in the mail and paid for just curiousness

 

[GooglezNvincent]

thats fine, i dont argue with you. You will come to learn alot of experienced keepers either have a necropsy done or do it themselves because they want to know what happened and if they did something wrong. Its actually a good thing to have one whehter it is a Dr. or yourself, nothing wrong with it.

 

[Cainschams]

....im not about to argue over this tho

Thanks, I would appreciate that.

Jo,I know what edema means. Im sure it can occur anywhere but have never heard about it in the lower abdomen. Nothing mentioned about checking the bowel besides that she was about to go again soon. Mystery is correct at this point. I mean something had be going wrong?? She was clearly declining.

Kent, no blood work while I was there and no mentions of it. Also no signs of infection.

Fortunate or not this was the first time, besides my first cham, that a healthy non WC has givin me any signs of poor health and a chance to get it medical attention so I am not very well versed I took her straight to a very well respected herp vets clinic where I had confidence they would do what was necessary. I was seen by an intern (no bash) but would have liked to talked to Dr. Stahl himself.

I was in the middle of a job when the Dr. called and I would not have been able to talk to him after I was done so I was somewhat preoccupied when talking to him. I started this thread so I can gather some other questions for him and also to be more prepared and have some possible suggestions the next time something like this happens.

 

[jannb]

Jared I am so sorry for all you had to go through and loosing your female. The decisions that we have to make are sometimes very difficult.

 

[Ryan123]

thats fine, i dont argue with you. You will come to learn alot of experienced keepers either have a necropsy done or do it themselves because they want to know what happened and if they did something wrong. Its actually a good thing to have one whehter it is a Dr. or yourself, nothing wrong with it.

alright i didnt kno if you would be looked at bad if you did it yourself like we have done disections at school before and so has my mom alot so we tried ourselves she looked really healthy inside she had to have been one of the runts cuz the females i got today both are ginormous