My husband thinks our cham (Fred) may DIE!!!

[jannb]

Go to Dr. Alfonso! He's wonderful!!!!!! I drive 2 hours to see him. He has chameleons himself and had had chams for years and years. BEST cham doctor in the south east part of the country. Prices are very reasonable, too. He's easy to find right by Universal Studios. Visit his web site: www.kirkmanareavet.com

 

[desultadox]

And his office, if memory serves me correctly, is very close to a school, so it's not like it's in the hood! Now where I live in Orlando, THAT's the hood. =(

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

(Been swamped with work!)

A quickie couple of notes until I get back from work tonight...

Your vet can prescribe Ponazuril. It is usually supplied by a compounding pharmacy (Ex: diamondback drugs in AZ ships it. http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com) . Even though you will likely only need half a dozen doses; for about ~$25 + cheap shipping, you'll get 100's of doses (refrigerate). The vet may want to prescribe Albon but see if he'll work with you get prescribe Ponazuril (less side-effects and seems to be more effective).

The more you clean the better the odds of success. I just washed things well and re-planted the potted plants and used ammonia (outside!)

Bleach will not kill the cyst-form of coccidia. 6% hydrogen peroxide is supposed to kill it. The hair salon supply places sell it in high strengths. The strength is sold using a term called "Volume". 10 volume is 3% and 20 volume is 6% and so on. I found 40 volume (12%) at about $1.25 a quart (They call it "Clear". Don't buy the cream form.) I didn't bother to dilute it. It's strong so be careful while using it. The good news is that it breaks down to water and oxygen when dissipated . I just used the peroxide on various surfaces and didn't soak things in it.

Gotta dash to work!!!

 

[Fred]

Go to Dr. Alfonso! He's wonderful!!!!!! I drive 2 hours to see him. He has chameleons himself and had had chams for years and years. BEST cham doctor in the south east part of the country. Prices are very reasonable, too. He's easy to find right by Universal Studios. Visit his web site: www.kirkmanareavet.com

We are, traffic in Orlando (I-4) just makes me very nervous!! If my husband can't get away from work I will get a friend to go with me, Thanks everyone for ur help, I'll hit the salons tomarrow to get ready for DECON!! Dave, Wihere do u work? I see u left for work 13 hrs ago and are not back on yet?? : ) Thanks again for everybodys help!!

 

[summoner12]

We are, traffic in Orlando (I-4) just makes me very nervous!! If my husband can't get away from work I will get a friend to go with me, Thanks everyone for ur help, I'll hit the salons tomarrow to get ready for DECON!! Dave, Wihere do u work? I see u left for work 13 hrs ago and are not back on yet?? : ) Thanks again for everybodys help!!

You should come to LA and check out our traffic........ Ever heard of 'the orange crush' ... no its not a drink....

 

[Fred]

I would die in L.A. or N.Y., would love to visit for a few weeks (with someone else driving and showing me around) but I don't think I could ever live there!!

 

[summoner12]

I would die in L.A. or N.Y., would love to visit for a few weeks (with someone else driving and showing me around) but I don't think I could ever live there!!

My commute this morning around 9am.... I take the route i made with the red line within the square. That is a 25 mile drive to work... Takes me about 20 minutes This morning it was raining... so uh... it took me 35 minutes

 

[Dave Weldon]

...Dave, Wihere do u work? I see u left for work 13 hrs ago and are not back on yet?? : )

Howdy Tricia,

I actually made it home at a reasonable time last night but "zoned-out" . The day before yesterday started with a 5am alarm and then a ~120 mile drive to visit a customer (a bunch of Ph.D.s) working on the leading edge of quantum (as in quantum theory) computing, where I then demonstrated (for 7-8 hours) one of the many products that the company I work for (the last 27+ years) makes and sells. This time it was a ~$100,000 oscilloscope. I'm a "High Speed Digital and Analog Test" application engineer. That's a fancy name for someone who has a toy box full of fun goodies that I get to show-off to my customers. The day was a lot longer than either I or the Field Engineer (sales guy) had planned. I got home at about 9:15pm. I was just glad that the Ph.D.s didn't form a Black Hole and let me get sucked-in .

 

[Dave Weldon]

...the fecal came back with "some" pinworms and "a SEVERE amount of Coccidia" GREAT!!!! They recommended two meds to be taken at the same time (which I think I read somewhere it is better to do treatments one at a time, I questioned this and they said NO, same time) For pinworms Panacur, and for Coccidia Albon 5%.

I think we should still take him to the specialist to make sure meds and dosages are correct and to have blood work done (if the vet thinks it is in order) I read somewhere also that u have to bleach the cage many times during treatment, dispose of all plants, and anything else U can't boil to disinfect, but my husband says he read it is FATAL in babies and JUVENILES, we don't know how old Fred is but I would think he is a juvenile (6 months or so?)...

Howdy Tricia,

So to summarize things:

It's ok to give both of those parasite drugs at the same time.

With chameleons, most of the time, Albon has side effects making them listless and with a lowered interest in feeding. Albon works at helping to eliminate Coccidia but in some chameleon cases it doesn't seem to be able to fully complete the job during the usual treatment schedule (if ever). Most vets will still swear by it because it works well enough with other many other reptiles and most mammals.

Ponazuril has been around a while but it didn't really break into the USA chameleon keepers' world until recently. It's not quite a Silver Bullet but it has a high success rate and with minimum, if any, side effects.

Ponazuril:
Typically compounded (diluted by the pharmacist) to a strength of 60mg/ml.
Dosed at 30mg/kg of chameleon body weight.

For example, if your chameleon weighs 100 grams then you would dose him at 0.05ml of that strength of liquid Ponazuril. That's an easy amount to measure using a typical diabetic syringe whose entire length holds a volume of 0.5ml. A 0.05ml dose is 1/10 of the length of that syringe.

A treatment schedule of one dose every day for 3 days and repeat after 7 days has been found to be effective. You'll want to do a couple of follow-up fecal tests, maybe the first fecal test one a week after all treatments have finished and again maybe a month after all treatments have finished. If you still find Coccidia after any of those post-treatment tests, you will want to continue treatment for more weeks. We can talk about that if he is still infected .

With a prescription phoned-in, Diamondback Drugs in AZ sells 30ml for about $23 + ~$4 shipping (buying less than 30ml doesn't necessarily cost less either). That's 600 doses . I'm sure you'll make some new friends in FL . It is ok to buy it as a more diluted compound if you want to have a larger volume (easier to measure small doses) to work with. If the dilution factor is doubled then the dose volume is doubled and so on.


Panacur:
It has a wide safety margin (hard to overdose to a danger level) for treating pinworms.
Paste is often sold at a strength of 100mg/gram (each gram of paste has 100mg of med). A weight of 1 gram of Panacur happens to have a volume about 1ml so it is easy to measure using a syringe.
It has a very simple dosing rate of 1ml/kg of chameleon weight.
Example: 0.1ml of paste is a dose for a 100 gram chameleon.
There are lots of dosing schedules. Once a week for 3 weeks is one that is often sited. Another is dose once a day for 3 days and repeat in 2 weeks. The basic idea is to sterilize the pinworms and any that hatch in order to break the life-cycle.

The part about "husband says he read it is FATAL in babies and JUVENILES"; was he referring to bleach or Coccidia ? If left untreated it can be fatal. Bleach should never be used with a chameleon still present. If you still smell bleach then you need more rinsing and dry-out time. Bleach kills most parasites but not necessarily Coccidia (see earlier post about H2O2). Whatever you use to kill parasites, physical agitation (spray with a hose) combined with soapy water will allow you to remove them from your chameleon's living environment. Take everything outside and blast it with water before and after soaping. Use whatever parasite killing product after washing things.

What did I forget ?

 

[summoner12]

hehe

Howdy Tricia,

So to summarize things:

It's ok to give both of those parasite drugs at the same time.

With chameleons, most of the time, Albon has side effects making them listless and with a lowered interest in feeding. Albon works at helping to eliminate Coccidia but in some chameleon cases it doesn't seem to be able to fully complete the job during the usual treatment schedule (if ever). Most vets will still swear by it because it works well enough with other many other reptiles and most mammals.

Ponazuril has been around a while but it didn't really break into the USA chameleon keepers' world until recently. It's not quite a Silver Bullet but it has a high success rate and with minimum, if any, side effects.

Ponazuril:
Typically compounded (diluted by the pharmacist) to a strength of 60mg/ml.
Dosed at 30mg/kg of chameleon body weight.

For example, if your chameleon weighs 100 grams then you would dose him at 0.05ml of that strength of liquid Ponazuril. That's an easy amount to measure using a typical diabetic syringe whose entire length holds a volume of 0.5ml. A 0.05ml dose is 1/10 of the length of that syringe.

A treatment schedule of one dose every day for 3 days and repeat after 7 days has been found to be effective. You'll want to do a couple of follow-up fecal tests, maybe the first fecal test one a week after all treatments have finished and again maybe a month after all treatments have finished. If you still find Coccidia after any of those post-treatment tests, you will want to continue treatment for more weeks. We can talk about that if he is still infected .

With a prescription phoned-in, Diamondback Drugs in AZ sells 30ml for about $23 + ~$4 shipping (buying less than 30ml doesn't necessarily cost less either). That's 600 doses . I'm sure you'll make some new friends in FL . It is ok to buy it as a more diluted compound if you want to have a larger volume (easier to measure small doses) to work with. If the dilution factor is doubled then the dose volume is doubled and so on.


Panacur:
It has a wide safety margin (hard to overdose to a danger level) for treating pinworms.
Paste is often sold at a strength of 100mg/gram (each gram of paste has 100mg of med). A weight of 1 gram of Panacur happens to have a volume about 1ml so it is easy to measure using a syringe.
It has a very simple dosing rate of 1ml/kg of chameleon weight.
Example: 0.1ml of paste is a dose for a 100 gram chameleon.
There are lots of dosing schedules. Once a week for 3 weeks is one that is often sited. Another is dose once a day for 3 days and repeat in 2 weeks. The basic idea is to sterilize the pinworms and any that hatch in order to break the life-cycle.

The part about "husband says he read it is FATAL in babies and JUVENILES"; was he referring to bleach or Coccidia ? If left untreated it can be fatal. Bleach should never be used with a chameleon still present. If you still smell bleach then you need more rinsing and dry-out time. Bleach kills most parasites but not necessarily Coccidia (see earlier post about H2O2). Whatever you use to kill parasites, physical agitation (spray with a hose) combined with soapy water will allow you to remove them from your chameleon's living environment. Take everything outside and blast it with water before and after soaping. Use whatever parasite killing product after washing things.

What did I forget ?

The meaning of life?

Good info Dave!

I want to add that you can get the panacur at LLL Reptile or maybe a local feed store. It comes in a big tube. I was just using it today with one of my Melleri, Henry. I don't know for sure if he has worms via a fecal test, but his poo has smelled REALLY bad and has been runny. I gave him a dose last weekend and his poop started to become more firm. I dosed him again today. (Maybe I can bring a sample to the meeting Dave?)

Panacur at LLL

 

[Fred]

Sweet thanks for the info, I am taking him in to Ivan Alfonso next week and am sure he will let me use the ponaziril! My husband was talking about the parasites being fatal and i explained to him it meant if left untreated, he wanted to be sure! So if I do blast the plants with the peroxide and they survive how do i know if the parasites are gone and the plant is safe? Probably just be easier to buy new plants (lol) so how often should I clean with peroxide while he's in active treatment? (Daily, weekly,?) I'm sure u can't clean too much!! I tried withholding food- today was day 3 and he was hunting all over for food (even though I use a feeder jug-maybe he was hoping some had escaped) I put silkies and supers and phenox worms in the feeder and he wouldn't touch it, I tried putting a silkie on his vine in front of him and behind him (just in case he was just not noticing them) BAD IDEA- he's afraid of them!! He started doing the reptile dance the the ones on that u tube link Kenya posted!! It was crazy, so I removed them and gave in- put crickets and he gobbled them up. He eats med crickets bc he seems to have problems with the size of lg, I've never tried hornworms but I worry they would be too big (same reason I haven't tried Dubias- that and they ARE ROACHES-EWW!)

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Kevin,

Bring that Melleri poop sample to the mtg and I'll take it home for testing the following night after I get back from work .

 

[dodolah]

how do i know if the parasites are gone and the plant is safe?
you are right. We never know... It's under assumption that it would kill the cyst. We just hope for the best it won't come back.

Probably just be easier to buy new plants (lol)
This is what I did. I'm lazy. I don't like adding more chores to already complicated matters such as gutting the cage

so how often should I clean with peroxide while he's in active treatment? (Daily, weekly,?)
Since the treatment of ponazuril take about 2-3 weeks (3 consecutive days followed with a week break and another 3 days of treatment).
I suggest weekly cleaning with major cleaning at the beginning and the end of treatment.
Daily would be way too time consuming plus it might stressed out your cham that his "home" being raided daily.

I tried putting a silkie on his vine in front of him and behind him (just in case he was just not noticing them) BAD IDEA- he's afraid of them!! He started doing the reptile dance.
It was crazy, so I removed them and gave in-

my veiled yanked all of the silkies latched on the vine and threw them one by one to the floor (i am not kidding...) until he decided that one of the silkies was annoying enough that he needed to do his infamous kill bite.
"Chomp!"
You can almost saw something click in his head. Then, he decided to chase the others that he threw on the floor and ate them.
Put those silkies again and this time let the silkies be there and invade his privacy. He will be pissed off enough to actually bite one of them and realize how good this "invader" taste.


(same reason I haven't tried Dubias- that and they ARE ROACHES-EWW!)
Would it be better if i say they are not roaches, but papaya beetle?

 

[Dave Weldon]

...I am taking him in to Ivan Alfonso next week and am sure he will let me use the ponaziril!

...So if I do blast the plants with the peroxide and they survive how do i know if the parasites are gone and the plant is safe?

...how often should I clean with peroxide while he's in active treatment?...

Howdy Tricia,

I'd lightly approach Dr. Alfonso about Ponazuril. He's likely to be a bit skeptical (as are most vets) about any drug being "promoted" on reptile internet forums . Maybe approaching it as you being interested in trying it as less rough on the chameleon yet still a medically unproven treatment method for Coccidia that you'd like to try might go over better with the Vet. Your agreement that you are willing to work with (local) vets for follow-up fecal exams will help assure that if it isn't cleared that you will either continue with treatment or switch to another treatment. You might want to buy some Albon from Dr. Alfonso while you are there. Phoning in the prescription and getting it paid for while you are at the Dr's office is a good idea too. They will ship direct from the pharmacy to your home. Who knows, maybe Dr. Alfonso or your local vet knows a local compounding pharmacy that will dilute some Ponazuril for you.

FYI - Ponazuril is usually sold for horses. The horse-sized tube that it comes in would cost $100's . That's why you want a compounding pharmacy to take a small amount of it and dilute it for you. I think an undiluted tube has something like 6000 chameleon doses(?)

You can never be absolutely certain if your cleaning methods are 100% effective . We're all just "playing the odds".

Spot-clean any poop contaminated area as soon as there is poop to clean-up. Then spray the entire enclosure floor with H2O2 after spot cleaning and leave it. I don't think there is any reason to rinse it but if you want to flush the surface with waTER, let the H2O2 work for 10-30 minutes first. Clean all of the plants again on a weekly basis until treatment is completed.

 

[jannb]

Howdy Tricia,

I'd lightly approach Dr. Alfonso about Ponazuril. He's likely to be a bit skeptical (as are most vets) about any drug being "promoted" on reptile internet forums . Maybe approaching it as you being interested in trying it as less rough on the chameleon yet still a medically unproven treatment method for Coccidia that you'd like to try might go over better with the Vet. Your agreement that you are willing to work with (local) vets for follow-up fecal exams will help assure that if it isn't cleared that you will either continue with treatment or switch to another treatment. You might want to buy some Albon from Dr. Alfonso while you are there. Phoning in the prescription and getting it paid for while you are at the Dr's office is a good idea too. They will ship direct from the pharmacy to your home. Who knows, maybe Dr. Alfonso or your local vet knows a local compounding pharmacy that will dilute some Ponazuril for you.

FYI - Ponazuril is usually sold for horses. The horse-sized tube that it comes in would cost $100's . That's why you want a compounding pharmacy to take a small amount of it and dilute it for you. I think an undiluted tube has something like 6000 chameleon doses(?)

Dr. Alfonso will give the Ponazuril, if you just ask him. He just called it in for my daughter a few weeks ago. Jann

 

[Fred]

Awesome!! Good to know!! Thanks everyone for the info- can't wait to get started!!! I will keep u updated on the progress and follow up fecals!! Do u think knowing all this (the worms he has) it would be a good idea to do a blood draw? Isn't there one more parasite that can only be found in blood? Is there anything else he should be checked for? Would a blood draw determine that he's getting the right supplements etc.? Sorry for the 5 million questions!!
And I will put the silkies back in, that is funny what ur guy did!! And yeah, changing the names of the roaches would work if it would change the way they look too!!!

 

[kenya]

Awesome!! Good to know!! Thanks everyone for the info- can't wait to get started!!! I will keep u updated on the progress and follow up fecals!! Do u think knowing all this (the worms he has) it would be a good idea to do a blood draw? Isn't there one more parasite that can only be found in blood? Is there anything else he should be checked for? Would a blood draw determine that he's getting the right supplements etc.? Sorry for the 5 million questions!!
And I will put the silkies back in, that is funny what ur guy did!! And yeah, changing the names of the roaches would work if it would change the way they look too!!!

Dubia are adorable. They are slow little beetley bugs and the little nymphs will follow the adult females around in social groups.

 

[dodolah]

Awesome!! Good to know!! Thanks everyone for the info- can't wait to get started!!! I will keep u updated on the progress and follow up fecals!! Do u think knowing all this (the worms he has) it would be a good idea to do a blood draw? Isn't there one more parasite that can only be found in blood? Is there anything else he should be checked for? Would a blood draw determine that he's getting the right supplements etc.? Sorry for the 5 million questions!!
And I will put the silkies back in, that is funny what ur guy did!! And yeah, changing the names of the roaches would work if it would change the way they look too!!!

blood test is incredibly stressful for chameleon.
Just make sure that he is in tiptop shape.

 

[Fred]

So would it be better ( I presume) to finish treatment with worms and after 1st clear fecal do it? When is it recommended? Do I even need one done? T

 

[Dave Weldon]

...Do I even need one done? T

Howdy Tricia,
If your vet feels a blood test is necessary then get one. Otherwise, I think you are probably fine without one since he isn't showing any symptoms of other problems in addition to the parasites .