my chameleon is very very sick

[anuenue]

hi there, i have a male panther chameleon who was loving life up until the day he climbed to the top of his 3 foot cage and fell to the bottom.. onto his head on a climbing log. (i have removed the log and softened the bottom of the enclosure.) i saw when he fell and he had wrapped his tail around his back foot, i guess thinking it was a branch, and then just basically let go. since then he has refused to eat.. he has been bright red and orange most days and a deep dark purple the other days... he has spastic head movements almost like a twitch and he never did before, and since has fallen at least 4 times that i have witnessed, and the last time he didnt even try to get up he just lay in the bottom of his tank.

i talked to the ladees at the reptile rescue society which i am a member, i spoke to a veterinarian all of which have given me great advice to avoid any undue stress. i got a recipe for liquid diet and was having little to no trouble tube feeding him, i just had to get a little in and he would open his mouth for the rest.. but know he wont open his mouth and he pulls his head away if i try to put the tube in... i dont wana stress him out or hurt him by forcing him to.. so i have left a large bowl of live food in a clear dish at the bottom of the enclosure covered in calcium and multi-vitamin and have been doing my best to keep him well hydrated. he is starting to loose weight and im very very worried. does anyone have any advice??

 

[anuenue]

sorry i forgot to add.. i really dont thnk it is metabolic bone disease, although i havnt owned him long and he had had 4 previous owners... one being a pet store... and so i am sure his care has not been consistent... he did not show any signs of being anything but in perfect health up until the day he fell.

 

[laurie]

You said you had talked to a reptile vet, has the vet seen your chameleon? I would get him to the vet ASAP.

 

[Chameleonboy]

In order for anyone to help you out you should fill this out.

Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
* Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
* Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
* Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
* Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
* Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
* Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
* Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
* Location - Where are you geographically located?


Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.


Pictures are helpful

-Clemonde

 

[anuenue]

cage 3x3 x3 feet
UVA UVB bulbs 12 hours per day 9am-9pm basking bulb on same schedual all are reptisun brand
temperature is 75-90 in the day 95 max in baskin spot (because the vet suggested i rais the temp) ... lowest temp at night is 65 got a digital reader
humidity is between 75-95% increased the humidity and the temp by suggestion of the vet same digital reader for both... been misting him down as well and the branches cause that is all i see him drinking off of
also have a dripper and a waterfall both of which i used to see him drink from but not since the fall
no live plants, had african violets in there but they died from the water on their leaves bio-vines and such ...fake moss like stuff at bottom to soften falls, calcium sand
cage is up on a 2 foot high table no traffic except me and my partner who do the care for him
we are on the west coast of canada on vancouver island
he was eating 15-20 bugs a day before the initial fall silk worms, wax worms, king worms (his favorite) butter worms, and crickets, and spinach mango slurry once a week which i coated the king works in.

it was 6 days of no food at all until we could tube feed him, he allowed us to tube feed him for the past 2 weeks, 15ml a day.. 5ml at a time 3 times a day, and 10 ml of water 5 times a day 2 ml

i have not takin him into the vet as we live in a small town and she is located an hour and 20 minutes in the closest city ... the stress of the travel she said would be detrimental...not to mention trying to keep the temperature consistent during that entire time there and back plus wait time and appointment would be impossible. she has done a few phone consolations with me and i have a woman who said she would be willing to do a house call but i have persistently tried to get her to come through and as of yet she has not
i cant seem to attach pictures but i have tons if anyone knows how??

 

[anuenue]

3ftx3ftx2ft wide sorry typo mesh no glass wood framed we built the enclosure for him.

 

[pantherlover]

the head twich & the bright colors sound like a mating thing

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."all are reptisun brand"...long linear tube or compact/spiral?

You said..."95 max in baskin spot (because the vet suggested i raise the temp)"... that is still pretty high for a panther.

You said you have a waterfall...IMHO these are just bacteria breeding grounds and it would be better not to have one.

You said you have fake moss like stuff at bottom to soften falls, calcium sand"...both of these could cause impaction if ingested. I recommend no substrate for panther chameleons.

You said he was eating..."spinach mango slurry once a week"...spinach binds calcium and is not recommended. What doe you mean..."which i coated the king works in"?

You said...5ml at a time 3 times a day, and 10 ml of water 5 times a day"...this seems like a lot. I hope you didn't get any into his lungs?

You said..."have not takin him into the vet as we live in a small town and she is located an hour and 20 minutes in the closest city"..for 20+ years I have driven 100K to the vets many times.

You said..."trying to keep the temperature consistent during that entire time there and back plus wait time and appointment would be impossible"..you can buy heat packs at any Canadian Tire store to keep the container warm. They generally work for 6 hours and you can always take a spare one with you.

What do you use specifically for supplements and how often for each? What do you gutload/feed the insects?

 

[anuenue]

compact/spiral
i told the vet the temperatures i had in the tank before he fell and those are what she had told me??
before 90 degrees was the highest temp in the basking spot and it got as low as 70 at the bottom of the enclosure he cant get any closer then 14 inches away from the heat light
she had suggested that the twitching and falling could be due to restlessness from the need to breed and if i raised the temp it would help him to calm down.
the water fall was changed every day but when he started to fall i removed it because i didnt want something hard for him to land on.
mabey i should put a pic of the soft moss stuff... im not really sure what it would be called... it cant be eaten by him at all its is far to big for him to even try its something he can climb on and grip but it is very fine and soft for landing lizards.. its like a fine vine if that makes sense?? kinda like a bush but i just lined the bottom of the cage under the middle section to soften the fall... is there something better i could use?? (i dont know how to load pix im sorry)
the chameleon owners manual suggested calcium sand as the best thing to avoid impaction... (its a website) just the name + .com
sorry im not very very with the slurry mean just that i put mango and spinach slurry in with the kings worms and fed them to him once a week... (they are less nutrition as i understand?? although seem to be his favorite.. should i not be giving them spinach?? ) i also have been feeding my crickets broccoli and gutload is that ok??
i have sadly had to tube feed lizards before on the brink of death... my most loved was my little tao and she made it back thankfully and lived another 6 years with me before she sadly passed (leopard gecko) i do not believe i got any n his lungs and his breathing sounds normal he is not breathing threw his mouth at all.. he was voluntarily opening his mouth... we would hold him and just put the tube into the gum slightly and put in a taste and then he was opening and closing it for us... until 2 days ago when he started pulling his head back and puffing up and we dont want to force it in him or hurt him so we have just focused on keeping him hydrated
i should have mentioned the animals i take are rescues.. this little guy had 4 previous homes and was in a pet store at one point for 6 months of his life so im not sure what care he has received for the past year and a half (assuming im correct in guessing his age at almost 2)
i have only had him with us for 2 months
i agree it did seem like alot of food.. although we were not force feeding him when he stopped opening his mouth for it that was it... and i strictly followed the recipe , amount and advice from the vet
i would have driven him in to the vet the day i called but she told me it would be detrimental to his health and to get a vet to do a home visit.. im in the process of pestering one to do so.. but in the mean time i dont know what else to do and waiting feels like doing nothing
the supplements i use are flukers calcium with vitamin d3 and exo terra multi vitamin
and as i said before i feed the king worms spinach and mango slurry the crickets broccoli carrots and gutload and the wax worms and butterworms i get come with a gutload in their little containers when i get them i was also giving him acidophiliz (a digestive tract conditioner) suggested by the vet in the liquid mixture he was getting which also had in it flavorless pedialite, vanilla ensure with calcium and protien, squished bugs, milk thistle, recovery powder, the vitamins and organic chicken with chicken broth baby food

also i a clear pedialite and water soak a good idea or bad for rehydration it was suggested to me by another chameleon owner

 

[Cainschams]

My advice......which will probably be offensive to most. Is to put it out of its misery.

I am sorry for what you have to go through. I know there are a lot here to help you but the aspect of him being in this type of situation and what you have explained.......the best in my opinion would be to euthanize him.

To me it sounds like he can not live or does not want to live a live with "extra help". Hence the not wanting to eat.

I will maybe or probably catch hell for what I am about to say because people put too much human emotions into their well evolved animals but............

If you can not afford or cant find a vet to properly put him out of his misery then the best home remedy is to crush his head. Step on it, crush it with a brick etc. This is the most "humane" way to stop suffering for an animal or human in that matter. Morbid....maybe, but less painful, yes.

Sorry for your loss but its time to think about the way it will live instead of anything else. Do you want to live like that?

 

[anuenue]

oh.. that is really really sad.. not offensive but sad... i would definitely use a vet to euthanize him i am not capable of the other suggestion not because of human emotion.. but because i cant even squish the bugs in the blender for him my boyfriend has to do it... i would rather hurt a human then an animal they havnt ever done anything to ask for the conditions they are put in

but he was so happy for the first month he was here.. so friendly and always wanting to be interacted with.. he ate 15-20 bugs a day drank lots the pic i have on my profile is him and he is a gorgeous healthy color, good size and his weight hasnt dropped a whole lot since the time he fell.. its more why he fell in the first place.. and continues to do so.. i would definitely not want him to suffer.. he doesnt seem to be inpain... he isnt puffing up when i hold him or acting defensive.. he has only hissed at me once when i first got him and took him outta the cardboard box he was in...

i will suggest to the vet to bring with her the necessary equipment but i would love to believe i can help this little guy to enjoy his year on earth. am i being ignorant and naive?

 

[anuenue]

years on earth i ment to say... hope to say :S

 

[kinyonga]

You said the light is a compact/spiral...some of these compacts have been known to cause health issues. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0.

You said..."she had suggested that the twitching and falling could be due to restlessness from the need to breed"...he wouldn't do this unless there was a female there or he could nod at you...but since it only started after the fall its seems unlikely to me. He could be twitching from the injury or from a calcium imbalance. You said he was also holding onto his foot with his tail...another thing that might IMHO come from either.

You said..."is there something better i could use??"... a soft cloth might work.

Calcium sand has been shown over and over again to cause impactions...so I don't know who would have recommended it.

You said..."should i not be giving them spinach??"...I don't ever use spinach. It could be contributing to a calcium imbalance. Broccoli is not good to use either....you can feed the crickets, superworms, etc. dandelion greens, kale, collards, endive, escarole, carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, etc.

You said..."until 2 days ago when he started pulling his head back and puffing up"...was he holding his head up high and gaping and exhaling?

You said..."the supplements i use are flukers calcium with vitamin d3 and exo terra multi vitamin"...its not recommended to use a calcium powder with D3 in it more than twice a month. Its recommended to use a phos.-free calcium at most feedings to make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. found in many of the feeder insects. Its also recommended to use a vitamin powder with a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin a and use prEformed vitamin A only once in a while.

You said..."the wax worms and butterworms i get come with a gutload in their little containers when i get them i was also giving him acidophiliz (a digestive tract conditioner) suggested by the vet in the liquid mixture he was getting which also had in it flavorless pedialite, vanilla ensure with calcium and protien, squished bugs, milk thistle, recovery powder, the vitamins and organic chicken with chicken broth baby food"...you need to look at everything that you are using to see if there is any prEformed vitamin A or D3 in it....and to balance them and the calcium and phosphorous.

I don't know how much of the above will help this chameleon...it really needs to see a vet to determine whether the chameleon can be saved or should be put down. If he can't be turned around quickly then his quality of life won't be good.

 

[anuenue]

im sorry what does IMHO stand for??
i will clean out his enclosure in the morning and remove the sand and replace with a cloth.. the website is http://webhome.idirect.com/~chameleon/owners/chapter2-sub4.html
she says
"Substrate. There are several options on the market, but only 3 are safe: Calcium sands, astro turf and nothing at all. I do not recommend towels, newsprint etc. as insects will crawl and hide under it. Wood chips are good for increasing humidity, however, many incidences have been reported of chameleons ingesting them when hunting, leading to fatal results. It won't hurt to have "nothing" as substrate, chameleons are arboreal (they dwell primarily in the treetops) and its not often you will see them walking on the ground. In the winter, you may want to use something to add more insulation.
i will definitely change up what i am feeding the insects... when he was pulling his head back and puffing up his chest he had his mouth shut and his head up eyes closed tail coiled.
the calcium was dusted on the king worms because they were usually sticky from the mango and he got those once a week.. i will start to dust them once a month.. thats assuming he will be with us still... there is prEformed vitamin A or D3 in the recovery powder and i added the flukers calcium which is phosphorus free
i appreciate any advice at this point, i have rescued quite a few animals but never a chameleon before.. i am researching everything everywhere i possibly can to help this little guy..

 

[kinyonga]

I don't have time to give you a complete answer right now...I'll be back on later.

I don't recommend using a towel or cloth all the time for a substrate...its was meant to be a temporary measure until he is not falling.

Back with more information later.
Sorry.

(IMHO means "in my humble/honest opinion".)

 

[Matt1851]

My advice......which will probably be offensive to most. Is to put it out of its misery.

I am sorry for what you have to go through. I know there are a lot here to help you but the aspect of him being in this type of situation and what you have explained.......the best in my opinion would be to euthanize him.

To me it sounds like he can not live or does not want to live a live with "extra help". Hence the not wanting to eat.

I will maybe or probably catch hell for what I am about to say because people put too much human emotions into their well evolved animals but............

If you can not afford or cant find a vet to properly put him out of his misery then the best home remedy is to crush his head. Step on it, crush it with a brick etc. This is the most "humane" way to stop suffering for an animal or human in that matter. Morbid....maybe, but less painful, yes.

Sorry for your loss but its time to think about the way it will live instead of anything else. Do you want to live like that?

thats terrible!!! why not just put him in a tubberware container and put him in a freezer so he slowly falls asleep and passes??

 

[pssh]

Because being frozen to death is inhumane and painful. Severing the spinal chord or using barbituates (I think... I might have spelled that wrong, but whatever vets use) is the most humane.

 

[anuenue]

well children have the magic touch.. today my 6 year old got him to eat 2 kingworms... first solid food in 2 week thank you every one for your advice.. i am still goin to get the vet to come to do a home visit and any other advice i could really use.
thank you so much again everyone

 

[Cainschams]

well children have the magic touch.. today my 6 year old got him to eat 2 kingworms... first solid food in 2 week thank you every one for your advice.. i am still goin to get the vet to come to do a home visit and any other advice i could really use.
thank you so much again everyone

Glad to hear he is improving. I want to apologize for my earlier post. I shouldnt jump to conclusions about an animal, I am not a vet. I know how people love their pets and how sad it is to loose one. Situations like these do not need someones jump to conclusion opinion on what to do with their pet and ad to the sadness. Anuenue, I am sorry for my post I hope he makes a complete turn around.

 

[kinyonga]

Please remember that I am not a vet...I'm just speaking from what I have read/heard/learned over the last 20+ years that I've been keeping chameleons. You really need a vet to diagnose what is going on.

Spastic movements could be from injuries but it could also be a symptom of MBD. Holding onto his own foot could be either too. Chameleons with MBD often fall.

Your supplementation and gutloading/insect diet needs to be looked at for phos., calcium, D3 and vitamin A (the main players in bone health) to see if those things are in balance or if they could be contributing to MBD. Appropriate temperatures and proper UVB lighting (that does not pass through glass or plastic play a part in bone health too, sort of indirectly.