My Adopted 1.5 year old veiled may have mouth rot

[wake n blake]

Still considering names.
Got her off craigslist with a beautiful exo terra 24x18x24 setup, with waterfall (!) for... wait for it... $100.

Couldn't say no... always wanted one.

ANYWAYS, I'm posting in the health forum because I want to know if this is considered mouth rot... she's hissed a few times, moves around, eyes continuously move... owners said she was eating fine (she doesn't look too skinny, so yeah), plus the owners were good people and took good care of them, just with kids and bla bla bla, they didn't have a lot of time anymore.

But I noticed this swelling on her lip... thought it might be shed, but I don't think that's what it is... when she hisses, I don't see any wounds or openings in her mouth... is it just a bump/growth/calcium deposit?

this picture is from my cell... my sis is taking some with her dslr so you all can get a better view.

thanks guys.

blake

better picture

 

[sandrea]

welcom

hi.. you should get rid of the waterfall ..its a mold and bacteria target ..i know it looks cool but its pretty dangerouse to thier health..her lip looks like its not in line its hard to tell from the pics..i noticed her casque is kinda dentted in..u should look into that maybe she has a calcuim deficiency..dnt take my word for it but veilds casques are not suppose to be dented in like that. others will hae more info on this matter

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums. I keep veileds and I think I'd take her in for a check up at a good chameleon vet. Poor little girl looks like she's had a rough life. I'm glad that you got her and joined the forums. Where do you live and some of the members here might be able to help you with a good vet that knows chameleons. Some better pictures would be good and please fill out the Ask For Help Form so that we can see if there's anything that you need to improve on with the way that you are keeping her. I also have a couple of blogs for you. The first is my blog for new keepers and the second one is about egg laying and the laying bin. Females can and often do lay eggs even witout a male being around and you should have a laying bin in her cage at all times.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/345-egg-laying-laying-bin.html

 

[wake n blake]

Well, I've only had her a day now, so I have no idea what her schedule was, only what I'm trying to implement now.

My Chameleon (What I know): 1.5 year old female veiled

Handling: I've been maneuvering things in her cage to get temps right (I don't think her temps were right at the previous owners), and she's still hissing at me. She did eat a couple crickets out of my hand, though. That was awesome. I have not picked her up... figured I'd wait for her to come to me.

Feeding: She was fed crickets before. I'm feeding gutloaded crickets (gutloaded with Repashy gutload and calcium water crystals). They also gave me those weird smelling, FLukers cricket bites, figured I'd use those up.

I use rep-cal and herptivite to dust. rep-cal has D3... they were using rep-cal without D3. I keep a good amount of crickets gutloaded for 24hrs to feed the geckos and now the chameleon.

Watering, the owners have a waterfall with a pump and filter. She said misting wasn't needed, but I've been misting.

Temps and Humidity: The basking, top area, goes from 89-97ish. The cooler parts of the tank drop to 75ish. At night, the red lamp stays on and puts out an 89 degree basking spot, and keeps the tank at around 75. Humidity around here (kansas city, mo) is about 42%, which I mist a few times a day to keep in the 50%s.

She was really hungry today... so I don't know when the last time the previous owners fed her. She gobbled up about 6 crickets and went to town on some meal worms... maybe about 10?

She moves around, is active, and hisses and puffs up when I, the new and curious owner try and make things better for her ha. She did warm up a bit to me after I fed her, though.

And Sandrea, her casque puffed back up after she ate... it is NOT dented in like that anymore.

Her legs and bones look straight. She's a good climber, great cricket hunter.

TANK:

Now, before you all yell at me, I bought this setup on Craigslist... I did not set this up myself, and plan on swapping out enclosures VERY soon.

tank is a 24x18x24 Exo-terra, glass. I know they aren't supposed to be in glass. I'm gonna order a 18x18x36 or maybe a 48" from LLLreptile, probably... like 60 bucks for a nice screen cage.

bulbs: basking, day and night zilla 65w
flouros: they're compact flouros, but not the spirals. Are these still bad? In a week or so's time, I could replace this with an 18" 5.0 or whatever straight bulb.

no real plants, just fake plants and vines.

Cage is on a table, about 2.5 feet off the ground, so the chameleon, at its highest point in the cage, is say 4, 4.5' off the ground.

Location: Kansas City, MO.

Fecal: her poop looks like regular lizard poop to me... not runny or anything or discolored. Her urine stuff is kinda whitish, little yellow, which is also about the same color I'm used to seeing with other lizards.

WHAT I PLAN ON DOING:
Screen enclosure, STAT... she even sleeps like RIGHT ON the screen top with her nose pressed against it... I'm wondering if she's trying to tell me something.

If I need to, I'll axe the compact fluorescents (these are NOT the spiral ones, though).

AXE the waterfall STAT (though, I forgot to mention that I use reptisafe on the water I add to the enclosure) and go the DRIPPER route.

I use that Healthy Habitat stuff sometimes, too.

Her lights are 12 on, 12 off.

My ONLY concern is this bump on her lip. She gapes and hisses and moves around fine. When gaping, I see no sores or any discoloration in her mouth. I see no sores or discoloration on the outside of her mouth, just a swelling.

I've also emailed the previous owners (she said to email if I had questions) to ask about the growth, how long it's been there, etc. She acted like she knew a lot of about chams when I picked it up... I thought something was off though when she brought me to the all-glass enclosure.


PHEW, OK... I think I filled out everything I could. We're still trying to get a good picture of the side of her mouth, but she's a bit camera/people shy still, and I'm not wanting to stress her out. I know chams are more look and don't touch, so I'm not looking to make her a lizard that sits on my shoulder or anything.

 

[wake n blake]

Also, I mist 2-3 times a day... she HATES when I mist, like goes up into her corner and pouts. I feel bad, kinda. I don't spray her directly, but when she hears the sound, she scuttles off.

And thanks for the help so far and the links to check out. I really appreciate everything.

I DON'T know when I can get her to a vet... money is tight, school started, books were crazy, and I have to get the new tank and stuff. I will try, though. I have to find a rep-vet here in town.

 

[kinyonga]

It looks like an abcess on her lip so it will need to be cleaned out by a vet and a culture and sensitivity test done to determine what antibiotic she should be put on. If you don't do this it will likely go systemic eventually and then she will be in real trouble.

All the veileds I've ever seen/had hated the water being sprayed on them at first, but if you drip some on the end of her nose she should come around to drinking.

Also...because she is a female, once you get her health in order be careful not to overfeed her. It will push her into developing large clutches of eggs.

I would also advise you to have an opaque container at least 12" dep x 12" x 8" full of washed playsand in her cage so that she has a place to dig if she needs to lay eggs. Veileds can produce eggs without having been mated.


Here's some information I hope will help you with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[wake n blake]

Thanks Kinyonga. Very cool stuff.
Though, I'm pretty much doing what you said with the feeders... I will use the repcal w/o D3 as the primary duster, though. I use a mixture of Repashy dry gutload and greens from the store, kale primarily.

I can't get those archive links to work for the life of me.

Owner got back to me, said "It's been there" when I asked about the growth, so the bump has been there since she was a wee-chammy.

Now, if someone could point me to a feeding schedule/example... how do I know what feeding 'too much' is? I typically feed slowly, couple feeders at a time, and feed until she's done eating. Is that wrong? Should I decide for her when she's finished? Plus, doing it that way makes it easy to not leave feeders in the tank.

 

[tdotcham]

let me tell you... they will binge eat. I could probably feed my guy all day and he would take it in. It will only affect them in the long term in terms of gaining weight. I'm not sure about your species as I have never owned one, but my breeder suggested around 4 crickets everyday. It's also good to throw in the occasional worm (such as superworm, silkworm, hornworm) for a nice treat and variety in their diet.

For misting, my guy is the exact same. I found that misting extremely slow and with warm water would help when I had the hand mister, however I still avoided getting him wet. Utilizing a dripper might be effective, and I know thats how my guy likes to drink as he hates getting wet. You can purchase one of the zoo med "little drippers" or make one yourself utilizing a container with a pin prick through the bottom. Try and aim it so that the drips are falling on a leaf that is easily accessible and allows them to lick it up

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums. I keep veileds and I think I'd take her in for a check up at a good chameleon vet. Poor little girl looks like she's had a rough life. I'm glad that you got her and joined the forums. Where do you live and some of the members here might be able to help you with a good vet that knows chameleons. Some better pictures would be good and please fill out the Ask For Help Form so that we can see if there's anything that you need to improve on with the way that you are keeping her. I also have a couple of blogs for you. The first is my blog for new keepers and the second one is about egg laying and the laying bin. Females can and often do lay eggs even witout a male being around and you should have a laying bin in her cage at all times.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/345-egg-laying-laying-bin.html

There's a good link in my info provided above about how to keep and feed a female veiled. Here is it:
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/keeping-female-veiled.html

 

[panicbess]

This poor little girl looks miserable. Very Mad and Dark! Please watch for her getting egg bound! Take her out of the glass now. If she lived in it all her life with high humidity she may be in trouble. I would watch her closely and maybe give a warm shower!

 

[kinyonga]

Try them again...they work for me...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060114031124/http://www.adcham.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html