Must be quad time of the year

[Dooley1]

Wow-they are stunners Bob!

@ Perry...

The Cricket Crack is not something I've used just yet. I have used Zeigler Monster Cricket Diet (bought in a huge bag from Amazon) for the past couple of years because I saw it was what was used (I could be imagining this) by Ferguson in his panther chameleon book. I do think Bill and Laurie use Cricket Crack though, and Bill sent me some for Christmas, so I will be soon

I raised the current adults indoors last year because of a move, but have kept other quads outside the 2 years preceding without issue. I use a heavy misting schedule of 2-3 times a day for 15-20 minutes each when it's hot, and two times a day if it cools down some. I just keep them in Reptariums generally, and use this patio misting system called Misty Mate. I don't it that much though because it is cheaply made and I've had to buy them multiple times. I'm looking for a sturdier one.

I use a stable diet of crickets. Could that be a factor Perry?

 

[fluxlizard]

The Cricket Crack is not something I've used just yet. I have used Zeigler Monster Cricket Diet (bought in a huge bag from Amazon) for the past couple of years because I saw it was what was used (I could be imagining this) by Ferguson in his panther chameleon book.

Did you use this in the same manner as he used it in his book?

I believe he reported that when this diet was used with crickets in combination with mealworms he was able to use it and not have to dust with calcium, but was able to rely on the gutload formulation to provide the necessary calcium.

He reported the mealworms gutloaded calcium better from this diet and had a much better Ca : phos ratio than the crickets as a result. Which was why he used them along with the crickets which had an incorrect ratio. Also he reported that half grown crickets gutloaded better than larger sizes, so he only fed half-grown crickets and mealworms to his panthers.

If I remember rightly, he was able to provide the vit a necessary through this diet as well. In effect, I'm pretty sure I remember that in his book he reported that he did not have to dust at all, and had succeeded in producing a colony of panthers for 5 generations in captivity in his lab using this protocol.

I also think he gutloaded for only 2 days on this diet before feeding. I kind of wonder if his findings would have been the same on the larger sized insects had they been raised on the diet. Of course, some gutloads the calcium content or vitamin content make raising insects impossible as they are too nutrient rich- I don't know if this is the case with this or not.

 

[Dooley1]

Did you use this in the same manner as he used it in his book?

I believe he reported that when this diet was used with crickets in combination with mealworms he was able to use it and not have to dust with calcium, but was able to rely on the gutload formulation to provide the necessary calcium.

He reported the mealworms gutloaded calcium better from this diet and had a much better Ca : phos ratio than the crickets as a result. Which was why he used them along with the crickets which had an incorrect ratio. Also he reported that half grown crickets gutloaded better than larger sizes, so he only fed half-grown crickets and mealworms to his panthers.

If I remember rightly, he was able to provide the vit a necessary through this diet as well. In effect, I'm pretty sure I remember that in his book he reported that he did not have to dust at all, and had succeeded in producing a colony of panthers for 5 generations in captivity in his lab using this protocol.

I also think he gutloaded for only 2 days on this diet before feeding. I kind of wonder if his findings would have been the same on the larger sized insects had they been raised on the diet. Of course, some gutloads the calcium content or vitamin content make raising insects impossible as they are too nutrient rich- I don't know if this is the case with this or not.

No, I follow it much more loosely. I use to feed the crickets for as long as I keep them until they are fed. I do, however, usually feed half-grown crickets to the adults, and don't generally have 3/4 or full-sized feeders.

I dust with Repashy All in One most feedings for the F. lateralis, and dust maybe once a month for the quads.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Wow-they are stunners Bob!

I raised the current adults indoors last year because of a move, but have kept other quads outside the 2 years preceding without issue. I use a heavy misting schedule of 2-3 times a day for 15-20 minutes each when it's hot, and two times a day if it cools down some.

What temps were you dealing with? How humid is your area throughout the year? Where are you located? Thanks.

 

[pamnsam94]

Wow-they are stunners Bob!

@ Perry...

The Cricket Crack is not something I've used just yet. I have used Zeigler Monster Cricket Diet (bought in a huge bag from Amazon) for the past couple of years because I saw it was what was used (I could be imagining this) by Ferguson in his panther chameleon book. I do think Bill and Laurie use Cricket Crack though, and Bill sent me some for Christmas, so I will be soon

I raised the current adults indoors last year because of a move, but have kept other quads outside the 2 years preceding without issue. I use a heavy misting schedule of 2-3 times a day for 15-20 minutes each when it's hot, and two times a day if it cools down some. I just keep them in Reptariums generally, and use this patio misting system called Misty Mate. I don't it that much though because it is cheaply made and I've had to buy them multiple times. I'm looking for a sturdier one.

I use a stable diet of crickets. Could that be a factor Perry?

Sorry. My bad. I thought you used Cricket Crack. Maybe a sign of me getting older. I should have looked up the email before posting that. The email where you mentioned using Monster Cricket Diet was from 2013. Now that I've found that email, the one where I was impressed with the growth rate you were getting from your quads, would you mind if I posted some of it? It may be helpful to other quad keepers.

Perry

 

[Dooley1]

Sure (ten characters)

 

[pamnsam94]

Following are excerpts of an email exchange that I had with Dooley1 (Kevin) back in August of 2013. I wasn't satisfied with the growth rate I was experiencing from the quads I hatched and was looking for common variables used by keepers who were getting faster growth rates. Housing quads outdoors and using commercial gut-loads were two things I was not doing. Maybe other keepers might find some value in the following exchange. For the first 9 months with one particular clutch, I didn't use any commercially bred crickets.Kevin's responses are italicized.

From August 2013

I was being extremely cautious about not wanting them to get too much D3 from commercially bred crickets since most suppliers use vitamin D3 fortified gutloads. Since most of the feeders I was using either had to be cup fed or hand fed, I'm convinced the quads were not eating as much as they would have been had I been using the most easily free-ranged feeders, crickets. Since I've started using crickets, they've grown at a faster rate. However, as I mentioned before, since you are housing the quads outdoors, another reason it makes sense that yours grow more quickly is because yours are exposed to significantly higher temps (higher temps = higher metabolisms).

The outdoor housing did not affect their growth rates. I know this because they were raised indoors and not exposed to the outdoors until May, and were big already at that point. I also cup fed them when they were small. Also, my house was "cold-ish" in the winter...mid 60s with no supplemental heating other than the CFL bulbs on them. I think the difference was crickets.

Please refresh my memory. You are using Zeigler Monster Cricket Diet (which contains D3 and preformed A) to gutload your crickets, correct? Laurie hadn't heard of that product before and I've never used it. Did I ask you before if you have a nutrional analysis of that product (specifically how much D3 and preformed A it contains, e.g. X I.U. of Y per kg of product)? Since you house your quads outdoors, and since you've never had any of your quads get edema, I'm guessing that the Zeigler product probably has very little D3. Of course, a higher metabolism would also affect how quickly the D3 would be processed too so the liver wouldn't be overloaded with it as much as presumably it might be at lower temps.

I do use Zeigler Monster Cricket Diet. I sent you what was on the label in an email previously...but that is as much as I know about it. It was based off of my experience with lateralis and other species. My quads are housed indoors all year except for late May thru early September. Also, I have had quads get edema. It was only during pregnancy though. After the eggs were laid it immediately went away. I was not worried about it though to be honest. A little edema does not scare me. A lot of it, or seeing it chronically would. It is not an exact science and each animal is different just like people, even when you treat them the "same".

Have you used that product on any of your quads that you might have kept indoors for a long period of time or have you ever noticed an edema in one of your quads over the winter time (I assume you still gutload with the same product over the late fall and winter when they are inside)? I think I remember you saying that you simply don't worry about stuff like this. Maybe you've simply been fortunate (I'm not saying that in a derogatory manner at all as I've been fortunate about many things with chams over the years) and found a fantastic gutload that not only works for your carpets but also for a montane species as well. My bet is that it has very low D3 in comparison to many of the other gutloads out there.

I'm sure I've been lucky in many cases...but yeah I don't worry as much. If you fret over every little thing with chameleons you'll drive yourself nuts.
Kevin

I get confused about the various quads you've had but know that you've raised some neonates and experienced fast growth rates. I thought you kept them out longer than early September too, but now I know you keep them outside for just over 3 months. It does seem though that keeping them at higher temps for those 3 months might increase their growth a little because, being cold-blooded, it should result in a higher metabolism and therefore cause greater food consumption. Regarding the ones that were raised indoors and already big before you got them and put them outdoors beginning in May, how big were they and what were their ages at that time?

The ones I have outside now are roughly the same size as when I first put them out. They were almost full-grown at 11 months.

So, you cup fed crickets when they were young? I free-ranged fruit flies, mantids and bean beetles at first, then I started cup feeding other feeders (mostly dubia roaches and black soldier fly larvae) as the fruit flies were no longer big enough for them. I definitely notice a greater overall consumption of insects when I free range as opposed to cup feeding. Must be a bit boring to see feeders just go around and around in a cup. Certainly it's a lot more stimulating for them to see insects from different angles than just looking down on them from above. So, how old were the quads you raised from neonates before you started to free-range crickets?

The funny thing is that I go back and forth based on the chameleon. Some will cup feed great & then suddenly not seem as interested, or vice versa. I just switch it up based on their behavior at the time. For the most part they cup fed though, except for the male when he made the transition to the adult cage. After a few weeks he was back to cup feeding though after he settled in. They seem to get trained and run to the cup when you throw the crickets in. Like you said-it may be boring to some and they just don't seem to get it. I free-ranged crickets totally once I put them outside in May.