Minor chameleons

[Motherlode Chameleon]

So based off of the opinion of one breeder who advertised in a reptile magazine who you talked to a few times, you feel you have enough evidence to make a statement that furcifer minor can only be bred to f-3 or f-4?

Seriously, you don't see a problem with this?

The conversation I had with the guy just like any of you is he stated that they stopped breeding effectively at F3 or F4 generation. That is accurate coming from me whether, based on what Carl said, that was accurate coming from Bob the alleged breeder I could not tell you.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Your "first hand knowledge"/"first hand experience" is from never having actually worked with this species yourself, and has led you to make the statement that "Furcifer minor has been shown not to breed past F3-F4 in captivity"... Remember what I was saying about being "light on (and often completely lacking) evidence to back up statements that are being represented as fact"?

This is why I would eventually want to work with this species just not like this with highly likely non legitimate CITES documents. I only had a privileged of one year to buy wild caught pairs the rest the rest of my experience was talking to Bob.

Yes, that shipment was confiscated before they were listed as an Endangered species on the IUCN Red List. As outlined before, however, they were confiscated because of the CITES Notification to the Parties recommending that parties suspend import of those species from Madagascar. As has also been outlined, the animals in this new proposed shipment are not originating in Madagascar, so the cause of this previous confiscation is not relevant to this shipment. Further, as has also been outlined, there are no US laws restricting the trade in species of any IUCN Red List level, only ESA, which F. minor is not listed under. Finally, as has also been outlined, the US FWS is bound to uphold and obey the law, and in the absence of evidence of a violation of those laws, they can't just willy nilly deny or hinder a shipment that has all appropriate documentation.

I think its time to stop presenting these statements as fact, or like they are based on any evidence. Having concerns about the bloodline history of these individuals based on the trade history of this species, and having strong moral feelings about the trade in the species based on those doubts is one thing. A level headed and accurately represented discussion of these issues is completely acceptable. Drawing baseless conclusions that are presented as fact, however, does not help anyone actually become informed about the topic.

Chris

I have colleagues who have jobs with the BLM and Defenders of the Wildlife that have seen the adds openly on Kingsnake Classifieds and along with me think this shipment is going to be taken down, similar to the 2002 shipment as stated in the article posted by you Chris written by Ken Kalish. I am stating my opinion from my experience and from the standards of the establishment that endangered species has built here in the USA. As stated before if this shipment makes it to the USA and is not confiscated I am going to be surprised! That is what I think. Time is going to tell if I am wrong.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Saldarya]

I think the fact that is being missed here, and which I have expressed in another location, is the fact that this import will never even be shipped to the US without it being cleared and OK'd by all of the appropriate authorities.

Again, I find it incredulous that the assumption is that the risk would be taken and these rare animals lives gambled on by mere chance at customs.

To be clear to ALL reading this, there is absolutely a ZERO chance that these animals will run into issues entering this country.

They will either be already cleared and approved, pending a physical inspection to confirm numbers and no contraband (normal for any shipment), or they will never be shipped.

So to that point, can we please move on from the straw man argument that these animals will somehow be confiscated at US customs.

Thanks all!

 

[laurie]

I think the fact that is being missed here, and which I have expressed in another location, is the fact that this import will never even be shipped to the US without it being cleared and OK'd by all of the appropriate authorities.

Again, I find it incredulous that the assumption is that the risk would be taken and these rare animals lives gambled on by mere chance at customs.

To be clear to ALL reading this, there is absolutely a ZERO chance that these animals will run into issues entering this country.

They will either be already cleared and approved, pending a physical inspection to confirm numbers and no contraband (normal for any shipment), or they will never be shipped.

So to that point, can we please move on from the straw man argument that these animals will somehow be confiscated at US customs.

Thanks all!

Thanks, Bobby, for explaining you are not putting these magistic chameleons in any danger. Knowing they are properly papered and that information conveyed to the US FWS, once again, demonstrates the care you and Steve provide for the chameleons you import.

 

[danscantle]

Why only being able to breed to F3 or F4 is impossible

The statement that F. minor can only be bred to F3 or F4 is false. It has to be false in this universe.

If a species cannot be inbred for 3 or 4 generations then the inbreeding depression is so large this species could not exist in nature.

F. minor exists.

 

[Kent67]

How many species from Madagascar that were suspended from trade in 1995 are still represented in US collections, other than Calumma parsonii which have been imported regularly since then?

 

[rshewfel]

The conversation I had with the guy just like any of you is he stated that they stopped breeding effectively at F3 or F4 generation. That is accurate coming from me whether, based on what Carl said, that was accurate coming from Bob the alleged breeder I could not tell you.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

It makes absolutely no difference what this particular guy said, or did not say. Even if it was true that he had trouble breeding the species past f-3 or f-4, your statement is very bold and misleading. You are not presenting your own opinions as facts, as Chris has stated, you are presenting another persons opinion, from a foggy recollection, as fact.

There are so many problems with this, I don't even know where to begin. First off, you don't even know if the source was reliable or not. This is exactly why professors do not allow students to use Wikipedia. Secondly, it sounds like you do not even recall the details of his problems. For instance, maybe he suffered a power outage and lost his colony. Would this imply furcifer minor could not be bred past f-3 in captivity? His colony could have developed a bacterial infection from a bad batch of crickets, or improper hygiene. I'm just speculating, but it could have been anything. Does this mean they cannot be bred past f-4?

When I was getting my biology degree I had one professor the would give an "f" if you presented an opinion as fact on writing assignments. Back then I thought it was harsh, but now I understand it. Just look at this forum, you can't even get in a discussion without several members chiming in to tell you what they "know." It seems most people here, and I imagine most forums, don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

The statement that F. minor can only be bred to F3 or F4 is false. It has to be false in this universe.

If a species cannot be inbred for 3 or 4 generations then the inbreeding depression is so large this species could not exist in nature.

F. minor exists.

No saying chameleon populations having problems breeding after certain generations F4 or F6 generation is not false. It is actually well known on these Forums. Some species have proven to breed well in captivity while others not have not bred well in captivity at all. Calumma parsonii parsonii as proven by breeders on these (rantotro) to have been bred to only the F2 generation while the species obviously has bred continuously in their native environment in Madagascar. This an obvious and well known example that your statement is false. Your statement is a broad generalization and is not a good example of chameleon breeding in captivity vs wild.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/calumma-parsonii-parsonii-84839/

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

It makes absolutely no difference what this particular guy said, or did not say. Even if it was true that he had trouble breeding the species past f-3 or f-4, your statement is very bold and misleading. You are not presenting your own opinions as facts, as Chris has stated, you are presenting another persons opinion, from a foggy recollection, as fact.

There are so many problems with this, I don't even know where to begin. First off, you don't even know if the source was reliable or not. This is exactly why professors do not allow students to use Wikipedia. Secondly, it sounds like you do not even recall the details of his problems. For instance, maybe he suffered a power outage and lost his colony. Would this imply furcifer minor could not be bred past f-3 in captivity? His colony could have developed a bacterial infection from a bad batch of crickets, or improper hygiene. I'm just speculating, but it could have been anything. Does this mean they cannot be bred past f-4?

When I was getting my biology degree I had one professor the would give an "f" if you presented an opinion as fact on writing assignments. Back then I thought it was harsh, but now I understand it. Just look at this forum, you can't even get in a discussion without several members chiming in to tell you what they "know." It seems most people here, and I imagine most forums, don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

What are you talking about? You are saying I am stating opinions that should be based on facts and I am talking about chameleon experiences and opinions I have had in a discussion on a chameleon forums. Last time I checked discussions in a University were totally Okay with talking about opinions and experiences. I am not turning in a paper to anyone I am stating my opinion that this shipment of Endangered Chameleons is likely to be confiscated in a environmentalist USA. I understand that can you? You fail the point if these chameleon cannot breed to the F4 generation and only live 4 years that is at most 4x4 or 16 years that means they would have stopped breeding around 2011. That is evidence that is unlikely, not impossible that these imports were captive bred as they require new genetics to continue breeding past the F4 generation. After this then you are bold and misleading enough to start to speculate on? I think you got the "F". There are other breeders in Europe who have openly stated that CITES paperwork from before 1995 for Furcifer minor is highly unlikely even for this shipment. I stated what I had to say if this order goes through we shall see what happens.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I think the fact that is being missed here, and which I have expressed in another location, is the fact that this import will never even be shipped to the US without it being cleared and OK'd by all of the appropriate authorities.

Again, I find it incredulous that the assumption is that the risk would be taken and these rare animals lives gambled on by mere chance at customs.

To be clear to ALL reading this, there is absolutely a ZERO chance that these animals will run into issues entering this country.

They will either be already cleared and approved, pending a physical inspection to confirm numbers and no contraband (normal for any shipment), or they will never be shipped.

So to that point, can we please move on from the straw man argument that these animals will somehow be confiscated at US customs.

Thanks all!

Thanks, Bobby, for explaining you are not putting these magistic chameleons in any danger. Knowing they are properly papered and that information conveyed to the US FWS, once again, demonstrates the care you and Steve provide for the chameleons you import.

You talk about the best interests of the chameleons. Yet you are intending to import species that are "OFFICIALLY" threatened with not even existing anymore.

http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/8766/0

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[rshewfel]

Never mind, you are clearly not going to get it.

A couple questions though, just because I don't know that i understand for sure.

By your thinking, couldn't that last chameleon be around 20 years later? Wild Caught(possibly 4 years), F1(4 years), F2(4 years), F3(4years), F4(4 years). So 4x5=20. That would be 2015

Also, wouldn't it depend on how big the initial population is? What is WCxF1? I am under the impression the offspring would be F1. Seams like if you have a big enough population you could make it a long time before reaching f4

That being said, I doubt anyone in the US has any left, but I'm not going to pretend like I know what chameleon breeding is like in Europe

 

[rshewfel]

If anyone knows where I can find an article on the subject of captive breeding multiple generations of chameleons in captivity, please let me know. I find it really hard to believe that enough research has been done by anyone to make a claim that chameleons can only be bred to a certain generation in captivity, especially if there is a large enough gene pool and excessive inbreeding is not involved. I to have heard the rumors, but I think this tread is a pretty good example of how rumor get started. Not saying they have no merit but I would like to read some information on the subject.
Thanks

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

There is no published work on captive breedings over multiple generations of any kind unfortunately. That is research that has not been publicized from the private sector and hasn't been performed in any official capacity as far as I'm aware. Nothing to substantiate success or failure of multigenerational populations. I believe Dooley is on F5 with his carpet chameleons...I know he's at least on F4 for sure.

I think it's been made clear why this shipment won't be confiscated because it either won't ship at all if there's even a hint of a problem or everything is in order. The fact that it's an endangered species does not automatically doom it to failure. Chris has already adequately explained why.

 

[CarlC]

The best person to ask about this in the US would be Kevin (Dooley1). He just produced F6 lateralis.

Carl

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

F6! In a species that if I'm not mistaken is quite similar to Furcifer minor...

 

[Kent67]

Kevin has been adding wc blood to his lines throughout, if I'm not mistaken. Or, at least, he's bred back to cb bloodlines much closer to wild. I believe he's explained that somewhere. It wasn't F5 x F5 to get the F6, right?

Edit: I looked at old communications and they don't say wc bloodlines. So probably F1 males, right Kevin?

Edit edit: oops, just saw Kevin's response below

 

[biffle]

Does anyone know if there is a caresheet published for F.Minors?

Jason

 

[Kent67]

Twelve years old. http://chameleonnews.com/02MayAndersonMinorCaptive.html

First paragraph spells out the captive status up to that point.

 

[SMCNARY]

Furcifer minor.... Some thoughts

I think everyone would agree that this species in in trouble in its native habitat.
I recently had a conversation with a well known and highly respected individual who has lived in Madagascar over 20 years.
During our conversation I expressed an interest in going to Madagascar so I could see some chameleon species in there natural habitat. The following is a quote from that individual.
( if you plan on coming here to see that YOU BETTER HURRY )
As our conversation continued he told me that he was sickened by just how fast the natural habitat of many species in Madagascar was being destroyed.
One of the reasons Furcifer minor is in danger of disappearing in the wild is due to loss of natural habitat.
I wish now to pose a question to this forum.....
If we can import Furcifer minor into this country legally.
( As defined by previous facts presented by an extremely well respected member of this community Dr Chris Anderson)
Then isn't it our obligation to do so as a chameleon community ??????
If I'm not mistaken we now have species of animals in this world that only exist in captivity and would otherwise be gone forever if not for captive keeping and breeding.
In my OPINION ( not a statement of fact ) we cannot stop the destruction of habitat in many countries due to the simple reason that it comes down to an issue of survival for the people living in those countries.
It seems to me that the world community should do so much more to protect these magnificent ecosystems as well as to start additional captive keeping and breeding of our endangered species.
Thank you
Steve

 

[Dooley1]

Kent is correct.

I have eggs/babies descending from an original WC I got about 10 years ago, 6 generations ago. I haven't bought a wild-caught in years, however, I do outbreed with F1 or F2 males. So technically speaking they are not F6, but 6 generations from the original wild-caught mother.

Thanks,