dinokeeper
New Member
I know that metal halide lighting produces heat and uv light. I was just wondering if anyone knows whether the spectrum of uv is appropriate to keep a chameleon healthy.
metal halide lights for uv and heat
- Thread starter dinokeeper
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sdheli420
Avid Member
ive used mh for large(and i mean large) free ranges that consist of three 175-250 watt metal halide lamps in an area of a screen inclosed porch it was appox. 35' x 20' and had a humidifier as well as a timed misting system hooked up to the hose( this was in 1993 so i had no uv meters) i would recommend only a huge free range set up using thes h.i.d. lights ( "high intensity lighting")
p.s. i used agro-bulbs normally used for indoor hydroponics
Whatcamo
New Member
I wouldn't do it with out having a uv meter as I know I have to use special glass covers over my metal halide bulbs on my aquarium because they put out such and intense amount of uv that they'd blind the fish if the glass covers weren't in use also depends on the type of metal halide bulb too! But I wouldn't do it without experimenting with a uv meter I know in Europe there are metal halide bulbs specifically designed for use with chameleons that are becoming very well recognized and recommended!
If you can show me the spectral graph of your particular MH bulb, I may be able to tell you if it puts out enough UV to consider replacing a UV bulb.
I can guess with near certainty that it will not be sufficient UV and that it will be too much heat. My 400W MH bulb gets to 180F+
this statement is packed with errors...
Whatcamo
New Member
No offense but ? How so I've been using metal halide bulbs on aquariums for over 10 years and I know the risks and damages certain kinds can cause!
dinokeeper
New Member
his statements about the risks are true. I use metal halides now for my reef tank and without the protective covers all my coral would be fried in a matter of hours. I've seen it first hand with one of my freinds tanks.
dinokeeper
New Member
I found a website that has a spectral chart for brand of bulb that I use. http://www.ushio.com/products/petcare/aqualite.htm
Monzon
Established Member
The main risk comes from UVc. In the spectrum of 200 - 280 nm, UVc is quite dangerous to biological systems. This is the uv that is used to sterilize water and medical equipment. It can cause blindness and other problems in organisms. In nature, it is mostly blocked by oxygen in our atmosphere and very little reaches the earth's surface. Depending upon the construction of the bulb, UVc, may or may not be produced. Sometimes manufacturers use UVc blocking elements in the glass the bulb is made from. Sometimes the design calls for additional UV filtration in the form of lens glass. This is probably the main caveat about using non-specific bulbs. The CFL problems from several years back were the result of unblocked UVc coming through with the important UV between 295 and 297 nm. UV, like many of the abiotic components of biology, is paradoxical: It is vitally important for the overall health of organisms evolved to utilize it, but it is also damaging and deadly if the doses are unnaturally high, or from the wrong part of the 10 - 400nm UV spectrum. Without an accurate spectrogragh of the individual bulb, it is impossible to know whether it is safe or dangerous.
DekuScrub
Avid Member
if i recall i read somewhere in some thred here someone uses a metal halide or high pressure sodium in their greenhouse for uvb. i dont know what sort of wavelenths youd be looking at but its not as though they are specifically designed for that application.
i probably wouldnt risk it unless we can find some input from uv meter owners. and i know there are specific waveleghts that promote they synthesis of d3 and others that negate the effects. and if i recall correctly it is uvc that is used to sanitize.
i didnt know metal halides were used in reef systems so that just goes to show how much i know
EDIT*
sry for repeating i hadnt read all of the responses
i probably wouldnt risk it unless we can find some input from uv meter owners. and i know there are specific waveleghts that promote they synthesis of d3 and others that negate the effects. and if i recall correctly it is uvc that is used to sanitize.
i didnt know metal halides were used in reef systems so that just goes to show how much i know
EDIT*
sry for repeating i hadnt read all of the responses
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Ok I apologize for not being clear....
what "special" glass covers? this is a very vague and misleading statement
based on what does the claim of "blinding the fish" come from? UV exposure? too much light? can you cite a source for this I have never heard of this before
@Monzon: you know whats up
@dinokeeper: I looked at those bulbs. You didn't tell me which bulb you had, but it won't matter....I would not use any of those bulbs for non-aquatic setups. Looking at the spectral graph, they are "blue" heavy with virtually no reds.....this light is designed for an underwater/coral lighting setup. Terrestrial plants need much more red spectrum (it is necessary for the production of chlorophyll a and b). Your plants will be lacking in color.
This is why all "grow lights" are very red/pink tinted.
As for the UV output, this light does not output UVB. The spectral graph stops at 390nm; beneficial UVB is from ~290nm-315nm.
In short, this light will output too much "blue", not enough "red", too much heat (most likely), and NO UVB.
Again, you did not tell me WHICH bulb you had, but all 3 of the color temps have the same problem (I am basing my statements on the 10K bulb which is the "best" of these 3 for our purposes but still entirely insufficient)
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dinokeeper
New Member
6500k are also available which is full spectrum daily light. I will have to find a different graph or someone with a spectrometer because I know for a fact they do produce uv because of warnings on the packaging of the bulbs and reflectors. I don't know about the blinding affects but i had seen animals die of uv poisoning from lack of protective tempered glass covers. Anyway i was just asking to try to consolidate lighting in my large terrarium im biulding but unless i can find a definate answer somewhere itll be back to multiple kinds of lighting.
DekuScrub
Avid Member
@evil
"This is why all "grow lights" are very red/pink tinted."
metal halides and mercury vapors, very white blue lights are used for vegetative growth, then you want to alternate to high pressure sodium, more of an orange hue, for flowering growth.
i know this becuase i was trying to build a hydroponics lab in my basement, needless to say pops wasnt very happy about that XD
i figured i had so many lizards down there no one would notice a little weed
"This is why all "grow lights" are very red/pink tinted."
metal halides and mercury vapors, very white blue lights are used for vegetative growth, then you want to alternate to high pressure sodium, more of an orange hue, for flowering growth.
i know this becuase i was trying to build a hydroponics lab in my basement, needless to say pops wasnt very happy about that XD
i figured i had so many lizards down there no one would notice a little weed
CurtisGalle
New Member
@evil
"This is why all "grow lights" are very red/pink tinted."
metal halides and mercury vapors, very white blue lights are used for vegetative growth, then you want to alternate to high pressure sodium, more of an orange hue, for flowering growth.
i know this becuase i was trying to build a hydroponics lab in my basement, needless to say pops wasnt very happy about that XD
i figured i had so many lizards down there no one would notice a little weed
HAAA! LMAO!! ( hilarious but yes you are correct about the light too tho)
Whatcamo
New Member
One major question I guess that needs to be asked her is is there a plan of using a double ended metal halide bulb or a single end mogal screw in style
Mogal socket bulbs come with an already uv protective glass on surrounded the gas element so very little uv passes through I've been personally along with a couple others at the university have been testing the iwasaki 6500k, 250w and 400w we are also testing the GE 6,000k
We have not concluded on results yet but when we do I'll post it up with graphs results and writes up on each should be within a week or so!
Now on to the Double Ended metal halide bulbs these come as a bare bulb with no uv protective glass so the bulb is burned between a reflector and a uv protective piece of glass that reduces the amount of uv exposure without this piece of glass things become uv burned very quickly as its a full spectrum of uv radiation
this is why me and my colleague Feel this type of bulb will give us the most promise for being able to tweak the radiation output wavelengths of these types of bulbs based on the different mixtures of glass and different sand and iron elements to help block out certain wavelengths of uv radiation while allowing certain wavelengths to pass through!! So while this is all in beginning stages it is all going to be backed by lab grade equipment and resources!
But to conclude what we've seen so far the GE 6,000k 250w mogal socket metal halide bulb is showing the most promise we are also working out a deal with them to try to alter a few of the uv protective glass surrounds on the bulbs with documented chemical alterations to the glass so we can figure out what will give us the best uv output within the safe range!!
@evil like I said been at this a while Most mogal socket bulbs block out 85-98% uv radiation to be safe to sell to the general public on the other hand the double ended bulbs put out a full spectrum of uv from about 130-520 on average depending on the type of bulb so these bulb will be the ones that will be easily altered and relatively cheap because the glass used to keep the uv output in a usable wavelength will be able to be kept for up to 10 years and you'd just have to replace the bulb and it will always be at your required wavelengths maybe I cleared some stuff up maybe I lost some but I hope this helps!
Mogal socket bulbs come with an already uv protective glass on surrounded the gas element so very little uv passes through I've been personally along with a couple others at the university have been testing the iwasaki 6500k, 250w and 400w we are also testing the GE 6,000k
We have not concluded on results yet but when we do I'll post it up with graphs results and writes up on each should be within a week or so!
Now on to the Double Ended metal halide bulbs these come as a bare bulb with no uv protective glass so the bulb is burned between a reflector and a uv protective piece of glass that reduces the amount of uv exposure without this piece of glass things become uv burned very quickly as its a full spectrum of uv radiation
this is why me and my colleague Feel this type of bulb will give us the most promise for being able to tweak the radiation output wavelengths of these types of bulbs based on the different mixtures of glass and different sand and iron elements to help block out certain wavelengths of uv radiation while allowing certain wavelengths to pass through!! So while this is all in beginning stages it is all going to be backed by lab grade equipment and resources!
But to conclude what we've seen so far the GE 6,000k 250w mogal socket metal halide bulb is showing the most promise we are also working out a deal with them to try to alter a few of the uv protective glass surrounds on the bulbs with documented chemical alterations to the glass so we can figure out what will give us the best uv output within the safe range!!
@evil like I said been at this a while Most mogal socket bulbs block out 85-98% uv radiation to be safe to sell to the general public on the other hand the double ended bulbs put out a full spectrum of uv from about 130-520 on average depending on the type of bulb so these bulb will be the ones that will be easily altered and relatively cheap because the glass used to keep the uv output in a usable wavelength will be able to be kept for up to 10 years and you'd just have to replace the bulb and it will always be at your required wavelengths
maybe I cleared some stuff up maybe I lost some but I hope this helps!
dinokeeper
New Member
Thanks that answered my question not safe but maybe some day. I look forward to seeing the data.
Whatcamo
New Member
You can use the simple Agro metal halide bulbs as grow bulbs for your plant but at this point I'd at supplemented UVB also there are currently metal halide bulbs being made in Europe for use on chameleon cages for sources of UVB / UVA and getting great reviews we just don't have access to them state side yet however the university is trying to get their hands on a few i'll try to grab ya the link to them!
dinokeeper
New Member
sounds great ild like that.
Whatcamo
New Member
Here's a few links on the ones we'll be researching
http://www.luckyreptile.com/products/145/en/pid1,4$pid2,7773888$pid3,7774304/products.html
http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-metal-halide-uvb.php
http://www.luckyreptile.com/products/145/en/pid1,4$pid2,7773888$pid3,7774304/products.html
http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-metal-halide-uvb.php
@Dinokeeper: the link you gave me there was no 6500K bulb.
A different bulb would have a different spectral graph. I am only commenting on the link you provided.
To be clear about UV. The "UV" range is a VERY WIDE RANGE from 200nm-400nm. What we are concerned with is *UVB* specifically from 290-315nm. UV radiation from 320nm-400nm is technically UV, but NOT UVB and useless for our purposes.
Not all UV is the same...
@DekuScrub: This is correct. As I have said in other posts, plants "typically" use blue colors for vegging and reds for flowering. This is why indoor setups use blue lights during vegging and switch to red for flowering. However, if you are using just 1 light, using a blue-only light with no reds will lead to very poor coloration.
@Whatcamo: I don't understand your point. I realize that they output "some" UV, but as I said above not all UV is the same....I ask again, what "special" glass. REGULAR glass blocks some UV transmission... are you saying you are trying to develop glass that blocks UVC but not UVA and UVB?
Here is a link to the Iwasaki bulb: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/6500k-400w-iwasaki-single-ended-bulb.html It says nothing about outputting below 400nm...
Can you provide me a link or product info on one of these double ended lights you are referring to that output down to 150nm wavelengths? How MUCH do they output exactly?
I'd be very interested to see these reports...
EDIT: you do realize those megaray bulbs have the spectral info and UV output data right on that page right.... http://www.reptileuv.com/images/metal-halide/BMH12spreadchartUVBforweb.gif
A different bulb would have a different spectral graph. I am only commenting on the link you provided.
To be clear about UV. The "UV" range is a VERY WIDE RANGE from 200nm-400nm. What we are concerned with is *UVB* specifically from 290-315nm. UV radiation from 320nm-400nm is technically UV, but NOT UVB and useless for our purposes.
Not all UV is the same...
@DekuScrub: This is correct. As I have said in other posts, plants "typically" use blue colors for vegging and reds for flowering. This is why indoor setups use blue lights during vegging and switch to red for flowering. However, if you are using just 1 light, using a blue-only light with no reds will lead to very poor coloration.
@Whatcamo: I don't understand your point. I realize that they output "some" UV, but as I said above not all UV is the same....I ask again, what "special" glass. REGULAR glass blocks some UV transmission... are you saying you are trying to develop glass that blocks UVC but not UVA and UVB?
Here is a link to the Iwasaki bulb: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/6500k-400w-iwasaki-single-ended-bulb.html It says nothing about outputting below 400nm...
Can you provide me a link or product info on one of these double ended lights you are referring to that output down to 150nm wavelengths? How MUCH do they output exactly?
I'd be very interested to see these reports...
EDIT: you do realize those megaray bulbs have the spectral info and UV output data right on that page right.... http://www.reptileuv.com/images/metal-halide/BMH12spreadchartUVBforweb.gif
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