Melleri Babies are Here!!!
- Thread starter chams1
- Start date
chams1
Member
It seems that the rest of the clutch isn't looking too great. Even some of the best looking and biggest eggs will sweat for a couple of days and then stop sweating and start to look bad.
I finally was able to speak with Mike (FL Chams) this morning and he confirmed what I had thought all along. There's really nothing I can do. I just have to sit and wait and let them do their thing. If they are strong enough to hatch, they will and if not, then they won't. (And this goes for any species - I knew this already, but it just sucks that I can't do anything about it.
) He did share a bit of information about when he hatched his group a couple of years ago that was interesting. He incubated his and hatched them out at room temperature, or at about 78 degrees. So, this would make the parameters even bigger and harder to follow for this species, basically making it a free-for-all. 
Interestingly enough, we have been having kind of a heat wave here over the last few days and I haven't been able to keep the eggs to the usual 72 and, instead, they have been at around 74-76. Based on Mike's information, I'm wondering if that's what prompted the sweating. So, because I really have nothing to lose here except for a bunch of precious babies, I am going to take them upstairs where it is 76-78 and let them sit up there and see what happens.
But basically, it sucks that this is such a prized clutch and a rarity and I can't do anything about it but sit there and watch. This is utterly heartbreaking.
I finally was able to speak with Mike (FL Chams) this morning and he confirmed what I had thought all along. There's really nothing I can do. I just have to sit and wait and let them do their thing. If they are strong enough to hatch, they will and if not, then they won't. (And this goes for any species - I knew this already, but it just sucks that I can't do anything about it.
) He did share a bit of information about when he hatched his group a couple of years ago that was interesting. He incubated his and hatched them out at room temperature, or at about 78 degrees. So, this would make the parameters even bigger and harder to follow for this species, basically making it a free-for-all. Interestingly enough, we have been having kind of a heat wave here over the last few days and I haven't been able to keep the eggs to the usual 72 and, instead, they have been at around 74-76. Based on Mike's information, I'm wondering if that's what prompted the sweating. So, because I really have nothing to lose here except for a bunch of precious babies, I am going to take them upstairs where it is 76-78 and let them sit up there and see what happens. But basically, it sucks that this is such a prized clutch and a rarity and I can't do anything about it but sit there and watch. This is utterly heartbreaking.
FroggtheCham
New Member
I'm so sorry Julie. All of the time, stress and hard work you put into this. It doesn't look good, but, I'm going to continue to hope you can get at least a couple viable babies.
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
I'm so sorry about this. I hope your not giving up yet. Let's all pray(sorry if your not religious) and wish for a miracle. I wish you the best and a miracle.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Feeling your pain
I know how devastated you are. As much as I really want to get my own fertile clutch incubating, I am very afraid that it may result in many eggs not making it due to my lack of experience with this species. The learning curve on hatching out some species is very steep. I guess you have to just tell yourself that your work with these eggs will help other keepers like me later on.....keep us updated, even if the news is not good. Spread your pain around a bit
I know how devastated you are. As much as I really want to get my own fertile clutch incubating, I am very afraid that it may result in many eggs not making it due to my lack of experience with this species. The learning curve on hatching out some species is very steep. I guess you have to just tell yourself that your work with these eggs will help other keepers like me later on.....keep us updated, even if the news is not good. Spread your pain around a bit
Chameleons Northwest
Avid Member
Julie, when ours hatched we had quite a few like yours that never made it out. And some made it out but just stretched out of the egg and died. I too think it was a breathing problem. But 14 did eventually emerge. Not sure what I did wrong with them, but of the 14 only 3 made it to juvenile stage. The rest lived only a few weeks. Don't give up. There's still opportunity for good hatchlings to emerge. And I'm sure you'll do better than I did with the hatchlings.
Last edited:
chams1
Member
Thanks for all the well-wishes (and sympathy) to all of you. I truly do appreciate it.
As heatbreaking as it is to deal with this and to even write about it, that is the very reason I am doing it, which is to document things for future breedings/incubations. If people wonder why I and others say that the Melleri are such a tough species to breed, well here you have exactly why. While Melleri Discovery is a great resource, it is truly outdated and there are only just a handful of people that have actually recorded their findings. It just sucks that there has to be such a large array of variables for such a fine and wonderful species. I guess it would be one thing to have them die off after one or two months, but to have them go to full incubation and to be fully developed inside the egg, just to have them go through the normal routine of hatching out and then for it to end like that is probably the worst disappointment I've ever had. It would also be different if it were a species that I deal with a lot, such as panthers, because I know that there will be others. I have no guarantees with this pair that they will ever breed again nor that, despite the fact that Newbie is quite the egg-layer, that she will ever lay another clutch. And thus comes the extreme frustration with trying to breed this species.
Anywho..... all is not totally lost just yet. I took 2 of the containers and put them upstairs where it is 78 degrees. Most of these eggs are the worst. These are the ones where I get the most disappointed. These eggs didn't really sweat much but the eggs turned almost translucent (similar to the Gesang's (Megana's) eggs when I saw them last fall before they hatched) and I can actually see the fully formed baby melleri inside (and the stripes are incredible!). Some of these eggs have started to shrivel and die off. Part of me wants to open them anyway but per Mike and the fact that in the ones I have opened the yolk sak is still in tact, I should just leave them alone. And the last one that I did that to, a lot of the "amniotic" fluid came out, which told me that perhaps the baby wasn't quite done cooking, despite the egg looking so poor. Ironically enough, these 2 containers are the ones that originally contained the perlite so again, there is another variable, although Flux used perlite with all of his, so maybe not.
The other 2 containers are still downstairs where the temps have been a solid 74.3 - 74.6 degrees even with the current heatwave. Most of these eggs were really fabulous looking before they started sweating. They all (except for a few) sweated for 2-3 days and then just stopped. The eggs haven't died/shriveled and yet they don't look like the other ones upstairs. While they don't look nice and white and healthy like they used to, they are still somewhat decent looking. These are the ones that I am hoping for the most.
So, based on what I have seen thus far, there could be a few different variables. Substrate, incubation temperatures, health of the mother, health of the sperm (this hasn't been mentioned, but I'm sure it could have something to do with it), overall health of the egg/baby, Mother Nature (I'd like to give her a piece of my mind sometimes....) and throw in a little luck, too.
As heatbreaking as it is to deal with this and to even write about it, that is the very reason I am doing it, which is to document things for future breedings/incubations. If people wonder why I and others say that the Melleri are such a tough species to breed, well here you have exactly why. While Melleri Discovery is a great resource, it is truly outdated and there are only just a handful of people that have actually recorded their findings. It just sucks that there has to be such a large array of variables for such a fine and wonderful species. I guess it would be one thing to have them die off after one or two months, but to have them go to full incubation and to be fully developed inside the egg, just to have them go through the normal routine of hatching out and then for it to end like that is probably the worst disappointment I've ever had. It would also be different if it were a species that I deal with a lot, such as panthers, because I know that there will be others. I have no guarantees with this pair that they will ever breed again nor that, despite the fact that Newbie is quite the egg-layer, that she will ever lay another clutch. And thus comes the extreme frustration with trying to breed this species.
Anywho..... all is not totally lost just yet. I took 2 of the containers and put them upstairs where it is 78 degrees. Most of these eggs are the worst. These are the ones where I get the most disappointed. These eggs didn't really sweat much but the eggs turned almost translucent (similar to the Gesang's (Megana's) eggs when I saw them last fall before they hatched) and I can actually see the fully formed baby melleri inside (and the stripes are incredible!). Some of these eggs have started to shrivel and die off. Part of me wants to open them anyway but per Mike and the fact that in the ones I have opened the yolk sak is still in tact, I should just leave them alone. And the last one that I did that to, a lot of the "amniotic" fluid came out, which told me that perhaps the baby wasn't quite done cooking, despite the egg looking so poor. Ironically enough, these 2 containers are the ones that originally contained the perlite so again, there is another variable, although Flux used perlite with all of his, so maybe not.
The other 2 containers are still downstairs where the temps have been a solid 74.3 - 74.6 degrees even with the current heatwave. Most of these eggs were really fabulous looking before they started sweating. They all (except for a few) sweated for 2-3 days and then just stopped. The eggs haven't died/shriveled and yet they don't look like the other ones upstairs. While they don't look nice and white and healthy like they used to, they are still somewhat decent looking. These are the ones that I am hoping for the most.
So, based on what I have seen thus far, there could be a few different variables. Substrate, incubation temperatures, health of the mother, health of the sperm (this hasn't been mentioned, but I'm sure it could have something to do with it), overall health of the egg/baby, Mother Nature (I'd like to give her a piece of my mind sometimes....) and throw in a little luck, too.
Monkeykungphu
New Member
I can only imagine that this must be a really strenuous time for you. Good luck with the rest of them! I hope it turns out as great as it can!
Thanks for the update.
Ben
Thanks for the update.
Ben
chams1
Member
Yes, I've thought about this as well. I wasn't too familiar with using perlite, but didn't like the way it dried out (at least for me anyway). Although when I had the opportunity to see Megana's eggs at the Gesang's last fall, their perlite was very wet. I basically did my vermiculite in the same manner that I do it for everything. Once again, add this to the list of variables.
CleaTheChameleon
New Member
Julie, thank you for the update. I am wishing you the best still. Im thinking of you and your eggs every day. How many eggs are down to now? Good luck with the rest
chams1
Member
Update:
Half of them are offically gone. The other 2 groups I left downstairs and they stopped sweating a few days ago and now they aren't doing anything. On the positive side, they haven't wilted/died either like the other ones, so I am still incubating them just as before and am still holding out hope that I will at least be able to salvage one or two out of this group.
Sometimes when I see kids (or adults) kicking and screaming and throwing a temper tantrum, I can actually empathize with them = trying to hatch out something that isn't common makes you want to act the same way.
Half of them are offically gone. The other 2 groups I left downstairs and they stopped sweating a few days ago and now they aren't doing anything. On the positive side, they haven't wilted/died either like the other ones, so I am still incubating them just as before and am still holding out hope that I will at least be able to salvage one or two out of this group.
Sometimes when I see kids (or adults) kicking and screaming and throwing a temper tantrum, I can actually empathize with them = trying to hatch out something that isn't common makes you want to act the same way.
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