Mbd?

[clarkrw3]

I got this little girl (5mo) on Friday and after watching her, I feel she has early MBD. She is very tentative when walking and hunkers down on branches like you see here often. I have also watched her grab her leg with her tail and her tail with her leg. I also think she has slight curving of both front and back legs. I am not going to mention who she is from and I have been offered a full refund but no replacement. However, I would like to work with her and make her better if I can. My wife and kids are in love with her already. Things I have already done for her is got her a brand new UVB 5.0 bulb, got her outside most of the weekend 7+ hrs and have been ghosting her crickets with Repcal pain Calcium, alternating with Calc Plus. She has a great appetite and drinks great!

thanks for your input!

 

[Carlton]

I got this little girl (5mo) on Friday and after watching her, I feel she has early MBD. She is very tentative when walking and hunkers down on branches like you see here often. I have also watched her grab her leg with her tail and her tail with her leg. I also think she has slight curving of both front and back legs. I am not going to mention who she is from and I have been offered a full refund but no replacement. However, I would like to work with her and make her better if I can. My wife and kids are in love with her already. Things I have already done for her is got her a brand new UVB 5.0 bulb, got her outside most of the weekend 7+ hrs and have been ghosting her crickets with Repcal pain Calcium, alternating with Calc Plus. She has a great appetite and drinks great!

thanks for your input!

You can certainly work with her and halt progression of MBD. If she's able to get around normally, can eat, drink, do the daily things all chams do she will continue to improve somewhat and stabilize. A word of caution...you can overdo calcium and D3 supplementation and the results can mimic MBD, so don't go overboard. Sure I can see the slight bowing of her legs, but her spine does not have the "collapsed" look of severe MBD, her jaw looks OK, and she's acting OK. I would get her on the correct supplement/vitamin/lighting schedule, gutload her feeders carefully (use a good gutload such as Cricket Crack) and not go crazy with extra calcium above that. She's eating and drinking normally so you are not trying to force anything on her.

 

[clarkrw3]

You can certainly work with her and halt progression of MBD. If she's able to get around normally, can eat, drink, do the daily things all chams do she will continue to improve somewhat and stabilize. A word of caution...you can overdo calcium and D3 supplementation and the results can mimic MBD, so don't go overboard. Sure I can see the slight bowing of her legs, but her spine does not have the "collapsed" look of severe MBD, her jaw looks OK, and she's acting OK. I would get her on the correct supplement/vitamin/lighting schedule, gutload her feeders carefully (use a good gutload such as Cricket Crack) and not go crazy with extra calcium above that. She's eating and drinking normally so you are not trying to force anything on her.

Thanks Carlton for your reply! I agree she is early and not severe but am glad someone else other than myself can see it in her legs. I actually am giving less D3 than normal because all she is getting is from the Calc Plus every other day rather than every day but getting more plain calcium. I am getting her outside in the sun as much as possible because that's the truest and safest form of D3. I gutload with Bug Burger and wet and dry using Sandrachameleons recipes. And all my bugs are home grown on gutload from day one! The only thinks I buy are hornworms. She is getting around just slower and more tentative than a normal cham and she is eating and drinking like a champ!
I am really still fuzzy about Calc shots or liquid calc. Even after researching it and talking with a couple other forum members about it

 

[jannb]

If she were mine I'd give her a couple of drops of liquid calcium a couple times a week. I give all my girls some liquid calcium once a week.

 

[clarkrw3]

If she were mine I'd give her a couple of drops of liquid calcium a couple times a week. I give all my girls some liquid calcium once a week.

Thanks Jann...what brand do you use? Is it the drug store (human consumption) kind or reptile specific?

 

[jannb]

Thanks Jann...what brand do you use? Is it the drug store (human consumption) kind or reptile specific?

I get mine from Dr. Alfonso. It says Calcium Glubionate.

 

[clarkrw3]

Just thought I would give you all an update on this sweet little girl. Her name is Pumori and she just might be the sweetest cham I have been around.
I ended up getting some Calcium Glubionate for her off of Amazon. We dosed her .05cc every day for the first 2 weeks until we started to see some improvement in her movement. Then tapered off to every other day and now we are doing 2 times a week. She was originally really sedate not moving around her cage. She would sit on the lower branches of the cage all black. We would move her up to the basking spot which she seemed to really enjoy and she would move down once too warm. Mainly I was trying to get her in the UVB as much as possible. We took her out side almost every day for at least 1hr many times up to 3 hrs and she would sit in the sun soaking it up. When we first got her she had a really hard time articulating one of her front wrists and would often step on the top of her foot. She would always have part of her body touching the branch she was on and she would never climb on the walls of the cage she would never put any real weight and stand up on her back legs.

So here we are 5 or so weeks from when she came to live with us and she is doing much better she stands up and walks around her cage, body completely off the branches. She at times will use the walls to get around. She is VERY active moving around her cage which is a 18x18x36. She has lost a little of the belly fat she shows in the pictures first posted in this thread. She still at times struggles with that one foot but most of the time if the steps are not awkward she does fine. She still eats great and is as sweet as ever. She hates the Cal Sirup but it's doing the job. We are using Calcium Plus on all of her food except one larger bug a week I dust with Repcal D3 Calcium. It may just be positive thinking but her legs even look a little straighter.

Thanks for the help guys! I think she is out of the woods, but time will tell.

 

[lumbasammler]

Good job!
I guess giving her a lot natural sunlight+ more VitD3 was the best to do in this case.
Can´t you leave her outside all day and night long?
This way you can probably get along without giving her any D3 at all.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

That's great to hear she is doing much better. And nice of you to decide to keep her and get her healthy again.

 

[jannb]

Thanks for the update. I am so glad to her that she has improved. Little girls are the sweetest.

 

[clarkrw3]

Good job!
I guess giving her a lot natural sunlight+ more VitD3 was the best to do in this case.
Can´t you leave her outside all day and night long?
This way you can probably get along without giving her any D3 at all.

Thanks Lumbasammler

I am not currently set up to have chams outside year around and it does get quite cold here at night. Other concerns about that is we have two large dogs and LOTS of birds in the area that could cause some problems. While I share your fear of D3 I am really not giving very much only slightly more than I would give to healthy chams. There is a little in the Calc Plus and then one feeder a week with D3 (in truth It might be more like one every week in a half) and the recommended dose by the forum is one day every other week which she eats several bugs a day.
I may have gone a little overboard on the Calcium Sirup but it seems to have worked. I used generic Neo-Calglucon and being I had no idea how to dose it for sure I started with .03-.05cc orally.

 

[clarkrw3]

Thanks for the update. I am so glad to her that she has improved. Little girls are the sweetest.

Thanks so much Jann!! We are really excited to see the improvement. She stole my wife's heart and much of her recovery should be contributed to her. She really is the sweetest cham. She is night and day from the day I opened that cup and she just sat there looking at me...not wanting to move

That's great to hear she is doing much better. And nice of you to decide to keep her and get her healthy again.

Thanks. My wife would not hear of sending her back! Her words were "He made her this way...we are not sending her back so he can kill her" She has since decided that I am NEVER allowed to bring another cham home from that breeder Because the other cham I got from them also showed lessor signs of MBD and was having a hard time with articulation of a foot and getting around. We were so worried about Pumori that we over looked some of what was going on with Leila. We have started treating her and we hope she responds as Pumori did. Leila is the opposite of Pumori...total pissy pants most of the time

 

[lumbasammler]

How cool does it get at night?
In Europe we keep Panthers outside until temperatures get below 55-57°F.

 

[clarkrw3]

How cool does it get at night?
In Europe we keep Panthers outside until temperatures get below 55-57°F.

Last night it was 41 deg...and it will freeze at times. I am going to have to bring my prized Hibiscuses in pretty soon at night

 

[lumbasammler]

Okay that´s definitely too cold

 

[clarkrw3]

Here are some pictures of my little girl

This is the most recent picture

Here is a week or so after we got

This was 2 or so weeks ago when she was feeling frisky not liking the female in the next tree First time she showed any displeasure at all with anything....she must be feeling a little better.

 

[lindawaz]

Great Job you two! It is always wonderful to see them get on the mend and moving forward in the right direction

She looks so much better in those pictures from the first one that you posted

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

Hi Rob,
I am so glad you kept Pumori

You've done a great job. I know we talked, and Im glad you went the liquid route.
At some point you will want to take them down to maybe once a month, with the dose. There is an injection(I will have to look it up, Linda will know) after the calcium injections to kind of "harden" the bones up. But I'm not sure if it is done with the liquid.

I am glad you are trusting your instincts, they seem to be spot on.

Seeing your little girl and Suzi's Jewels, it is making me want one as well!
anne

 

[clarkrw3]

Great Job you two! It is always wonderful to see them get on the mend and moving forward in the right direction

She looks so much better in those pictures from the first one that you posted

Thank you so much! It is very satisfying to see her get better. It is so hard with chameleons because sometimes you work and work and they just never seem to respond. To be honest I am shocked that she has gotten better as quick as she has.

Hi Rob,
I am so glad you kept Pumori

You've done a great job. I know we talked, and Im glad you went the liquid route.
At some point you will want to take them down to maybe once a month, with the dose. There is an injection(I will have to look it up, Linda will know) after the calcium injections to kind of "harden" the bones up. But I'm not sure if it is done with the liquid.

I am glad you are trusting your instincts, they seem to be spot on.

Seeing your little girl and Suzi's Jewels, it is making me want one as well!
anne

Thank you so much Anne!! I am glad I got the liquid and I will cut back as she keeps improving. Jann mentioned she gives all her females some liquid cal every week. Jann what dose do you use every week?? I would love to know what that injection is you are talking about. If you find please let me know!!
The girls are SO sweet and I think equally pretty just in a less flamboyant way You can see one of my Faly girls in this months photo contest...she is on fire! I think it was Jim with the Chameleon Company that said male and female panthers should almost be treated like different speciesand that is probably true, they are just so different