Male veiled very lethargic

[Lamour]

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Clyde is a male veiled chameleon. I've had him for about a month now, not sure of his age but i'd guess around 3-5 months?
Handling - Not too often, only to clean his cage or rearrange something.
Feeding - I give him about 15 crickets a day and he just had his first mealworm a couple days ago. He is fed about 8 at a time and if he eats them all i put more in the tank.
Supplements - I used calcium powder about once a week at first but he started getting powdery nostrils so i stopped for a few weeks. I have started using calcium powder and a multivitamin powder again since his health started to decline.
Watering - At first he had a drip system waterfall, i would see him going to or from the area but not actually see him drink from it. I noticed it became very slimy and dirty so i took it out and got a misting system now. It is set up to spray for 30 seconds about 3 times a day and every once in a while i'll spray the tank with warm water.
Fecal Description - Clyde has not been tested for parasites. His urates are always white with a few orange or yellow spots. His feces for the last week have been runny and a bit gray. His feces yesterday also smelled bad.
History - I got him from Today's Pets about a month ago. He seemed very healthy and was only ever minimally stressed from trying to make his new home perfect for him.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Clydes tank is glass with a mesh top. He has a gravel bottom but i put mesh on top so he cannot accidentally eat it. The tank is 36' X 18' X 18' i think.
Lighting - I have a halogen basking lamp in the right front of the cage, it is 100w. Then a 5.0 uvb 26w coil tropical light and a 2.0 uvb 26w coil full spectrum light. He hasn't been on a schedule so far but i just set his lights on a timer for 8am to 8pm cause he seemed unhappy at being awake so late.
Temperature - I have a thermometer and humidity monitor in the tank. The temp stays around 80 during the day and 70-75 at night. I'm not sure how hot his basking spot is though.
Humidity - The humidity stays around 50 during the day and will go up to 70's at night is his cage was recently sprayed.
Plants - There are 3 live pothos plants and the tank walls are surrounded by fake plastic plants because he doesn't like his reflection at all. There are two fake vines that go around the whole tank so he can climb anywhere. He doesn't eat the fake or live plants from what i can tell.
Placement - The cage is in the corner of my bedroom in the basement. There is a vent on the ceiling but it is kept closed. There is little traffic since im usually the only one in the room. His cage is on a coffee table so the top of the cage is about up to my hips ( i am 5'2)
Location - I am in maryland, us. Clyde isn't taken outside so far.


Current Problem - For the past 2 weeks Clyde has been declining in health. His feces have become runny and smelled the last time. He has become very lethargic. At first he started shaking when he walked, like he was weak or scared. Now he won't even lift his head and belly when he moves. He is eating much less, only a few crickets a day now. He spends most of the day just sitting on a stick or the top of a plant. He can still climb and grip but doesn't want to move much. He stays awake and still looks around during the day and his color is a nice green, he isn't dark at all. He will huff if he's annoyed but doesn't get really upset like he did when i first got him. His eyes seem normal and i see him eat at least a couple crickets every day. I have no idea what could be wrong, he just seems really lethargic and doesn't want to do anything. I am taking him to the vet Saturday but i'm worried he is going to get worse before then

 

[HolyToledo]

Welcome to the forum and I hope your baby gets better. I am fairly new to cham keeping and hopefully other more experienced members will help you out better than I could.

I don't mean to be an alarmist, but you should start looking for an experienced cham vet. It may be parasites and you will need a vet appt unless you have the equipment to do your own fecal exams or can find someone to do it for you but then, if it is, you will need the meds... A vet visit is easier in my opinion.

There is a listing by forum members of vets in their areas and you may need to wade through the lists to find one nearest you. It is at the top of the Health Clinic section...

I hope your little one gets better and someone experienced helps you out on here.

 

[ataraxia]

I believe your chameleon is in the beginning stages of mbd.

Things need to change in your care drastically. Most of what i see from the description and pictures are the reason for the chameleons decline.

For this chameleon to make a turn around most of what you are doing and have has to change. Imo so much needs to change that it would be easier to give a care sheet for you to abide by and buy the necessities needed in chameleon keeping. I dont believe you are monitoring temps correct, supplementing is not correct, lighting placement, cage type. When people deviate to far from the standard in care and do things to there own likings is when problems start to exist. Sorry if i seem harsh.

Cage: You have many options here. You can fabricate your own, free range or buy a pre-fab screen cage. I personally like to graduate cage sizes as a chameleon grows. A chameleon 1-4 months a 16x15x20 screen is perfect. Allows them to hunt efficiently. From 4-8 months i will keep them in a 18x18x36 and then a minimum cage size of an adult should be 24x24x48' SCREEN. Put in as much rope, vines and live plants as you can. Live plants will help with the humidity among other things. Be sure to use non toxic plants. Basic chameleon safe plants schefflera, ficus benjimina, hibiscus and pathos. Replant all pots with plain top soil. If you dont want any bugs microwave or bake the soil. Put the cage as high up in the room as you can. Not near any vents, exterior doors, fans or windows.

Lighting 10-12 hours: You have many option here also. UVB is crucial, your chameleon will not live without it! A 5.0 reptisun, reptiglo, zilla tropical linear tube (length depends on cage size) and a regular house hold bulb for basking. The house bulb watt will depend on how far your nearest branch is from the light and your ambient room temps. If you have live plants in the cage. You will want to put a 6800K plant light over the cage as well.
**Weather permitting take your chameleon outside as much as possible.
***Change UVB bulbs every 6 months.
****The basking light and uvb light should be placed close together above the cage.

Temps: Basking temp 90* ambient temps 72* measure by digital gauges. A 10-15 degree night time drop in temps is great. I dont recommend going below 50*. If temps get to low at night use a ceramic heat emitter. Absolutely no light at night.

Hydration: Couple of options here as well. Automated systems like a mist king, aquazamp, monsoon are great. You can get the manually pump sprayers, battery operated sprayers and typical bottle sprayers. Misting sessions should consist of 2-5 minutes/2-3 times a day. Another great addition to add to complement your misting schedule is a dripper. It is very important that your cage dries out between watering sessions.

Humidity: Fluctuating humidity is best. 50-80% is ideal.

Food: Gutload feeders (24 hours before feeding). Gut load ingredients listed below. Fruits and veggies are a simple solution hydration and extra nutrient for most feeder like crickets, dubai, discoides, turkish red runner roaches. All of these should be considered your chameleons main staple diets. Silk worms and horn worms are great snacks. You can also wild collect feeder but be careful where you collect make sure it is free of pesticides. Katydids, cicadas, moths, locust and bees to list a few.
**I do not recommend super worms or meal worms. Chameleons absolutely love them. Abused (using them as a staple) the only problem is if they are fed off without properly gut loading. It is guaranteed your chameleon will refuse any other food. Then it is a matter of time before the refuse these insects. They are poorly nutritional balance in the bran food/bedding they are kept in. You can use the same gut load ingredients listed below ot make these insect more balanced. i still strongly recommend if you do choose to feed these off to only feed at the end of a feeding as a snack only. Limit to only 2-3. This recommendation is from my personal school of hard knocks.


Supplements: Plain phosphorus free calcium every feeding and Reptivite twice a month.

Gutload: Read sandrachameleons and ferretsinmyshoes blogs for great ingredients.

 

[Lamour]

Alot of the things you had suggested I am already doing, maybe I haven't been correctly?

I am using the exo-terra monsoon system now for water.

The repti-glo bulbs are also the ones I have been using already and I've set them on a 12 hour schedule.

I gut load the crickets with a gut load drink gel and give them a little veggies to go with it.

I have gauges in the cage for monitoring, are they too close to the door maybe or just cheap ones?

There are live pothos plants in the cage. What live vines and such could I use? I've been recommended bamboo to use for vines and climbing but I'm not sure how I would set them up so they would stay in the air and such.

He probably does need more calcium. How often should calcium and multivitamin powder be used? Every feeding seems like a lot, I thought it was only good to do it like every week or something so they don't get too much.

I don't necessarily think the glass cage can't work for him. I'm planning on getting some kind of wallpaper so he won't be bothered by reflections and it never seems stuffy or anything. Is air flow and reflection the main reason a screen cage is so greatly recommended or are there risks with a glass cage that I haven't realized?

 

[carol5208]

sorry to hear your chameleon is ill. No, calcium at every feeding is NOT too much as long as it is the one without d3. Your chameleons legs look curvy which is not a good sign and a sign of mbd(metabolic bone disease). Ataraxia gave you some great advice and I know you have made some changes already which is great. I don't use real vines but I use bio vines and they can be wrapped around branches and plant stems.

 

[ataraxia]

Sorry, I dont see it nor do i read it.

Alot of the things you had suggested I am already doing, maybe I haven't been correctly?

I am using the exo-terra monsoon system now for water. This is great. My ways are not the holy bible for keeping but they do work and work well..Read what i state for water and see what you stated for water.

The repti-glo bulbs are also the ones I have been using already and I've set them on a 12 hour schedule. 12 hours is very good. Read what i state thoroughly about lighting. ALL of it. Down to the last thing with astrix beside it. Implement what i have stated..If you have any questions im here to help you.

I gut load the crickets with a gut load drink gel and give them a little veggies to go with it. This is minimal .Please read what i stated about gut loading..

I have gauges in the cage for monitoring, are they too close to the door maybe or just cheap ones? Sorry this is my fault..I did not explain this. To monitor temp properly. You will need idealy two digital therms with probes but truly just one will do. To set the basking spot temp you need to place the probe under the basking light on the highest point he can perch under this light. This should be set to 90*. This should be monitored for a few hours if not all the time if you can. To be sure you have this correct. Next, take a probe for the therm and place it down to the lowest branch or vine he can climb within the cage. Anything within 70-78 imo is suitable.

There are live pothos plants in the cage. What live vines and such could I use? I've been recommended bamboo to use for vines and climbing but I'm not sure how I would set them up so they would stay in the air and such.
Very nice..a pathos is a great plant. I honestly dont know of any other good plants that vine that do well indoors.

He probably does need more calcium. How often should calcium and multivitamin powder be used? Every feeding seems like a lot, I thought it was only good to do it like every week or something so they don't get too much.
Its what i recommend. Again you can do as you please but the chameleon is not doing well for a reason. I would take the advice and use plain calcium every feeding. This will not harm your chameleon one bit.

I don't necessarily think the glass cage can't work for him. I'm planning on getting some kind of wallpaper so he won't be bothered by reflections and it never seems stuffy or anything. Is air flow and reflection the main reason a screen cage is so greatly recommended or are there risks with a glass cage that I haven't realized?

The problems with glass...
1. regulating temps properly.
2. available sizes.
3. ventilation. do a google search on this..It makes me laugh when people state how these have the vents along the front and allow a good flow..Good, heck no. Better than nothing, yes. Some species of chameleons i would have no problem keeping in a glass enclosure but a veiled imo has no place being in one.
4. drainage.

Again you can do what you wish but in due time you will understand.

 

[Lamour]

I greatly appreciate the help, i don't mean to sound rude or anything about it all, just trying to understand exactly. I'm a first time reptile owner so just learning as I go, i'm sorry I have so many questions.

The calcium i have has no phosphorus or D3 so i'll definitely start using it everyday.

Will any pet store have the digital probes and how would you measure the humidity, the same basic way?

When i do gutload the crickets with veggies they'll eat alot just in a day so is it safe to be feeding them veggies everday? I looked at those blogs and got alot of food ideas i can give them.

I'll look into a screen cage but I'm not sure I can afford one right now. Any brand or website suggestions?

Can I just carry him or should I still have him in a cage to go outside and how often/how long is good? I guess probably depends on how stressed he acts?

Also just wondering why you use a regular house bulb instead of the basking bulbs, are they usually too much heat? I do have a 5.0 repti-glo uvb but he seems to prefer the 2.0 uvb (which I was told is more of a seeing in the cage light) should I not use the bright viewing one and only leave the 5.0 turned on or will they both do the same thing for him? I attached an image of the bulbs i have. The top 3 are on everyday, the one on the bottom i have but i haven't been using it.

Thanks again for the help, I just want to get everything perfect for what he needs and hopefully after his vet visit he will get better, at the least not any worse.

 

[ataraxia]

You dont sound rude at all..Please ask away

I greatly appreciate the help, i don't mean to sound rude or anything about it all, just trying to understand exactly. I'm a first time reptile owner so just learning as I go, i'm sorry I have so many questions.

The calcium i have has no phosphorus or D3 so i'll definitely start using it everyday.

Will any pet store have the digital probes and how would you measure the humidity, the same basic way? I buy mine from walmart but lowes, menards, home depot has them also.

When i do gutload the crickets with veggies they'll eat alot just in a day so is it safe to be feeding them veggies everday? I looked at those blogs and got alot of food ideas i can give them.yes it is safe and yes they eat a lot lol. I refer to those blogs all the time

I'll look into a screen cage but I'm not sure I can afford one right now. Any brand or website suggestions?
I go with whats on sale. They are all basically the same.


Can I just carry him or should I still have him in a cage to go outside and how often/how long is good? I guess probably depends on how stressed he acts? You can carry him or take him out on a stick or what ever you and him have an agreement with. He can stay out as long as you and the weather permits. On hot days make sure he has some shade.

Also just wondering why you use a regular house bulb instead of the basking bulbs, are they usually too much heat? I do have a 5.0 repti-glo uvb but he seems to prefer the 2.0 uvb (which I was told is more of a seeing in the cage light) should I not use the bright viewing one and only leave the 5.0 turned on or will they both do the same thing for him? I attached an image of the bulbs i have. The top 3 are on everyday, the one on the bottom i have but i haven't been using it.
I use a regular bulb because they work very well for the purpose and they are C H E A P ! A 100watt in a glass cage equals high temps. Id start with a 40 watt but also buy a pack of 60 watts. You will have to fiddle with that. 2.0 is basically useless but good for plants. The 5.0 should be next to his basking light. on your next go around with uvb bulbs i would definitely switch to the tube style bulbs.

Thanks again for the help, I just want to get everything perfect for what he needs and hopefully after his vet visit he will get better, at the least not any worse.Im glad you are taking the steps to help this guy out. If you have any other questions please ask.