Making a self efficient ecosystem. Help please?!

[TnEvs]

Hey there guys! This is my first post on here so I'll give you all a little history.
I'm a first time chameleon owner, I bought my boy (Skittles) when he was about a month or so old. He was teeny tiny! He's now about 7 months old and it's time for him to move into his big boy cage which I am in the process of making (well my father is bless him)
My partner and I have decided a self efficient ecosystem would probably be the best option for our monstrous monster tank which dimensions are :
1100 wide - 1500 tall - 600 deep
It will be made out of a wooden frame that will have 3 coats of yaght varnish and left to dry and air out for a couple of weeks (any ideas on exactly how long anybody? Don't want to upset Skittles!)
The frame will then have black plastic small hole mesh all round for optimum ventilation except for the back board of the cage which we were thinking of putting in ply board and gluing a waterproof laminate flooring to cover it so it's completely waterproof and thick enough that his little claws won't be able to complete wreck it. Colour a stone ish black texture and colour. ( what kind of glue do you guys think I should use to do this??)
we'd like to put the uv light inside the cage to avoid filtering out the uv through the metal mesh which will be on top. (Does anyone have suggestions how to protect this so he won't climb on it without filtering out the uv? He is a real roof climber also should I put the heat lamp outside the cage if not how do I protect this without risking him burning himself when he climbs around it??)
Now this will be a big cage my next worry is how many heat lamps and uv lights do you think I'll need and where in the cage?!! I'm concerned it's so big he may lack uv with only one bulb at the top? !
The bottom of the cage will have a ply board covered in a waterproof plastic sheet so we can put the eco system in the bottom (once again what glue would be appropriate?) In this waterproof deep section we will put soil and Moss and plant the chameleon friendly plants straight into this. Here will be no drainage I'm hoping it will be completely self sufficient.
I'm rather clueless to making this self sufficient eco system so any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
I've heard I need spring tails????
I live in the UK in Wales on a farm so I have plenty of access to soil and Moss but can I use this on the base of my cage or should I go for shop bought products??


Also we'd LOVE a mist king system but can't find any UK retailers that sell them any suggestions?!
Thanks so much for any advice sorry it's such an essay but I'm really determined to make the perfect habitat for him!!!

 

[TnEvs]

p.s

He doesn't seem to eat vegetation ever or eat at the dirt in his hibiscus plant pot so compaction shouldn't be too much of a worry I hope!!?
We have marine friendly silicone to fill in any bits we need to fill in also.
P.p.s
He's a panther chameleon.
Think that's everything?!!

 

[DanSB]

This sounds like a fun project! I by no means have comprehensive advice but I'll cherry pick a few things I feel competent to answer.

First with glues and finishes: The rule I follow is that if it dries completely or is marked as food safe it is probably OK. Where possible I would use a real silicone that is not treated to resist mold as it is safe.

Second: I don't like internal heat lamps or lights but many do and the main safety is to simply leave no possible way for your chameleon to reach them. Contrary to what it sometimes seems they can't fly...

UVB: I would use a T5 flourecent strip light that stretches most of the length of the enclosure. T5 bulbs have better penetration and will work better in your huge enclosure.

Heat lamps: experiment with different set ups to provide the correct basking spots and ambient temperatures. Use as many or as few as you need. There is no formula as it is highly Dependant on the rooms conditions.

Naturalistic bottom: you will need some sort of false bottom or drain otherwise you will quickly get root rot. If you're not sure just google naturalistic terrarium false bottom. This is very popular in the dart frog world.

I would add both springtails and isopods as the clean up crew and you still need to spot clean and pick up feces.

Finally, impaction doesn't have to come from purposefully ingesting substrate it can just as easily be an accidental from a miss on a prey item. For this reason I would make sure the top layer at least is ground coconut husk which most any meals can pass easily.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[TnEvs]

Thanks for the reply!!
I was thinking that maybe because of the scale of the cage it would be enough soil and plants that I wouldn't get flooding in the cage ? ?
Or do you think I definitely need some form of drainage whatever depth of soil I have or I will have this root rot problem?
I always figured natural habitats were soil and Moss?
I never thought of using a different substrate like coconut husk. Will the spring tails etc be perfectly happy to live on that kind of substrate?

Just thinking I have no experience of these little cleaning critters...how small are they and how likely is it that they'll escape from a mesh enclosure....
The mesh holes are the same kind of size maybe ever so slightly larger then the holes in the metal mesh that is on top of the exo terra vivariums if this gives you an idea of what kind of mesh I'm using

 

[DanSB]

The best advice I could give would be to read up on naturalistic terrarium / vivariums. There are literally thousands of tutorials online. For chameleon specific changes I recommend some sort of drainage (equivalent to the little hole on the bottom of a normal houseplant pot) because it takes a lot of experience to bsllance the plant and chameleon water needs without some sort of drain. It is certainly possible but it is super easy to drill a hole and put a water catch underneath. Why complicate things?

Springtails are tiny, they can and to some extent will escape but for the most part will stay put where they live in the dirt. They aren't pests and will pose no problems if there is a little dispersion. Same with most tropical isopods you can get, a few babies might get out but who cares?

For me I use organic topsoil with no bark or large chunks with about 4 or 5 centimeters of coconut husk on the top. My naturalistic terrariums have a bottom layer of expanded clay balls or a false bottom either has weed blocking fabric on top. On top of the fabric I add organic pesticide free fine particle soil with a layer of coco husk on top of the soil. For small frogs I'll also add moss to the top but for chams I believe that is an impaction risk. A small stoppered drain on the bottom is ideal so you can let out water if the soil gets waterlogged.

 

[TnEvs]

Ok great thanks I'll try to Google it and see what I can find.
Maybe the drainage backup is a good plan after all!! Not to worry the vivarium is still working progress so I will drill a hole in it somewhere before it's completed!!
I will be sure to send pictures of it as soon as it looks like a vivarium! It's almost there!! Excited!!
Rather scary though as it took me ages to be happy with the setup of his smaller cage so his bigger cage is going to be even worse and I have the worry of perfecting the naturalistic side of it now too!! Be well worth it when it's done! !

 

[TnEvs]

Hmmmm been taking a quick look at naturalistic vivariums on Google and all I can find really are people making vivariums that look naturalistic...
I need info on how to kind of set up a mini jungle in my cage...
On Google people are putting in a few mm of soil and substrate etc...

My cage will have 300mm high 600mm deep and 1100mm wide and thats just for soil?!

Which is what I mean about it being a self sufficient sort of a jungle type cage?!

Set ups showing me how to make the cage "look" natural won't give me the life like results I'm after.

I'm going to plant all my chameleon friendly plants straight into the soil in hope that the mist king I may eventually get one day if I can find one in the UK or get one delivered and my dripper will sustain the water requirements pretty much of the plants but hopefully not over do it too much ether as it's a huge area with a good few plants and the humidity should stay up in it so the mist king may not be vital often only the dripper??
It's on such a big scale I haven't seen anyone else do it??
I may have to take a slightly educated stab in the dark with it...
I'll keep you posted with pics ASAP.
If I can get it all perfect it'll be great!!
I do like the naturalistic backgrounds of these cages on you tube.... but I think I'll have enough vegetation that it won't really matter.
I'm lucky my dad is a carpenter/cabinet maker/builder!!!
Could go very very right or very very wrong hahaha!

 

[TKexotics]

Do a google search for bioactive substrate and ABG substrate mix, i think that might be what you are looking for.., we use it in most of our gecko enclosures , as well as in our large Madagascar biotope vivarium and if done right it works great, you will always need some kind of drainage though.

 

[MelissaB]

Are you looking for info on bioactive soil? It's pretty much a layer of hydroton for a drainage area (so soil isn't waterlogged), a sheet of fiberglass screen or landscape fabric to keep soil out of drainage layer, soil, leaf litter then add your springtails and isopods. I have smaller setups set up that way, and I love them. The tank "janitors" do a great job cleaning up after my anole, pygmy chameleons and geckos (separate enclosures). Not sure how they would do with bigger panther poop.
You definitely have to monitor the water being introduced, but if you have drainage you'll have a way to remove the excess. I have my plants, in these setups, planted directly into the soil. Not sure how the wood bottom will hold up, even with the yacht varnish. I think I'd line it with pond liner or something similar. My setups have glass or plastic bottoms.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Like this?

Thread here:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/enclosure-wall-130279/

 

[TnEvs]

That enclosure is amazing! !!!
Yeah a bit like that but taller then it is wide and a free standing screen cage.

Yes I was going to line the bottom of the ply board with some kind of waterproof sheet as the wood would eventually rot for sure.

I'll try checking out your suggestions as soon as I have a spare 5 mins thank you!!

 

[johnnyev]

Like this?

Thread here:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/enclosure-wall-130279/

Thanks for the link Mike, enjoyed reading that.
As you know Mike, these type of set ups have been used for many years in Europe & the UK (& a few like yourself in the U.S). Generally by the amphibian keeping community initially (tree, mantella & dart frogs for myself ) but are now being used by all sorts of keepers/hobbyists, from geckos, to snakes etc. They are the way to go imo & look so fantastic if done well. & seem to really bring out the best in whatever species is being kept. And also provide much more enjoyment, as well as cutting down on maintenance in my experience/opinion. There is so much taboo regards using substrates in enclosures, that it put people off.
@ TnEvs. Being so wet/humid unless you can fully waterproof it, timber is a waste of time & at best a hell of a lot of work/expense to fully waterproof. It's guaranteed to rot over time, just using yact varnish. Even when using a pond liner in the bottom, you are likely to get a build up of moisture between the liner & the ply (been there myself, got t-shirt etc ). If you look on this site (probably others sell the same materials too, but have used this guy before) http://dartfrog.co.uk/
Worth using the epoxy resins, as these fully waterproof timber & ply wood & are totally safe once cured. I looked into acrylic in the early stages of keeping montane species, but the high costs, put me off. But these type of materials would literally last a lifetime., so worth the expense if you can initially afford it.
Good luck with your project.

 

[DanSB]

@ Mike, that is an awesome enclosure, the guy who did that is certainly quite talented! Now I'm inspired.

Re using wood: One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the importance of using a marine grade plywood with silicone sealing all the joints. I have seen multiple enclosures last at least 5 years using this method with no signs they were decaying. With that said I would personally line the bottom section with PVC sheet.

 

[Mike Fisher]

@ Mike, that is an awesome enclosure, the guy who did that is certainly quite talented! Now I'm inspired.

Yeah, I'd consider that project the benchmark for this type of setup. It could be taller than wide, but I think that is a moot point because the bottom would be totally dark with that much foliage.

I keep that link favorited because I'm planning on trying the same thing with a group of Trioceros perreti. That species more than any other I have kept actually seem to be comfortable in groups.

On the cage bottom, I don't see a problem. I think the best way would be to use tile backer board, seam all of the corners with your fiberglass tape and thinset mix, then cover it with a few coats of liquid EPDM. This is probably what I will do for mine.

 

[Mike Fisher]

That enclosure is amazing! !!!

I saw your question on the other thread about the soil. All of my enclosures are fully planted screen cages and I use a 50:50 mix of peat moss and sand.

My enclosure thread is here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/cage-rack-131185/

 

[TnEvs]

So don't use yaght varnish at all??
Just this epoxy resin??
How many layers of it??
I was going to use 3 yaght varnish layers.

 

[TnEvs]

Mike would it be ok to put Moss in there that grows on boggy mountains on the floor?? Or do I buy Moss? ?
Although..
Some people have said don't use Moss due to impaction? !! This Moss seems to blanket the mountain so it would probably be in big long pieces

 

[Mike Fisher]

Mike would it be ok to put Moss in there that grows on boggy mountains on the floor?? Or do I buy Moss? ?
Although..
Some people have said don't use Moss due to impaction? !! This Moss seems to blanket the mountain so it would probably be in big long pieces

I would not use loose moss patches. If you have branches with moss growing on them, that's fine, IMO. Most of the branches I use have moss growing on them. But I won't put anything on the bottom of the enclosure that is not very fine. Plus you don't want to be trying to clean soggy moss pieces.

The deal with the 50:50 mix I use is that once it gets wet and packs down, it is not loose and fluffy and is not easily ingested. But if they get a bit of it by accident, it is fine enough to pass without an issue.

The only chameleon I ever lost to impaction was from using a potted plant. My chameleon dug up one of those styrofoam balls and ate it.

 

[DanSB]

Yeah, I'd consider that project the benchmark for this type of setup. It could be taller than wide, but I think that is a moot point because the bottom would be totally dark with that much foliage.

I keep that link favorited because I'm planning on trying the same thing with a group of Trioceros perreti. That species more than any other I have kept actually seem to be comfortable in groups.

On the cage bottom, I don't see a problem. I think the best way would be to use tile backer board, seam all of the corners with your fiberglass tape and thinset mix, then cover it with a few coats of liquid EPDM. This is probably what I will do for mine.

I have a 7' tall project I scrapped halfway through when it occurred to me the bottom would get no light and it would be very difficult to properly thermoregulate with the plan I had. I would think horizontally large is ultimately better for both environmental control and probably for the chams too.

The traditional problem with the thinset tile backer is that it will screw up the soil pH unless you soak it or coat it. EPDM is definitely a way to coat it and make it water proof! I would be concerned about out gassing or possible chemical leeching into the soil. Do you know how stable it is once set? If it is really chemically stable I would definitely consider it too!

 

[Mike Fisher]

I would be concerned about out gassing or possible chemical leeching into the soil. Do you know how stable it is once set? If it is really chemically stable I would definitely consider it too!

I've seen where people use it for waterproofing wooden planter boxes on rooftop gardens and growing food in the planters. The membrane referenced is also EPDM sheet. Quite a few people use that. I think the liquid will seal better because it soaks in and bonds to the substrate. No staples or glue to hold it in place like the membrane.

I use it to line the inside of rocket motors as thermal insulation. Versatile stuff.