Lethargic, eyes closed...

prion86

prion86

New Member
My daughter has a ~1 yr old panther. Over the last week or so, he started to become very lethargic and had been spending most of his time with his eyes closed. His color has been good, he has been eating well, strong grip, and no obvious signs of RI. None the less, he has not looked well, and I was sure he was on the way out.

After scouring these forums, I made a few changes:

-Got rid of those orange cubes for his feeders, and added oranges, carrots, fresh dandelion greens, bee pollen, and spirulina.
-Added a nice big umbrella plant.
-Cut back on the Ca + D3, replaced with regular old Ca.
-Replaced his CFL UV bulb with a T8 (local pet stores didn't have T5s).

I have a digital therm/hygrometer on the way.

This morning, I went to his room to offer his morning meal, and he was up and about. Eyes open, exploring his new plant, doing his best to dry off every leaf. Checked in on him a few hours later, and he was in his basking spot, eyes wide open. He is currently back to exploring.

He still has a vet appt Tuesday, but I'm no longer concerned he won't make it. I have no way of knowing if there still are underlying health problems until the visit, but he is a much happier cham today.

Thanks to the whole community for the advice. Fingers crossed.


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If I remember, I'll post a pic of his enclosure tomorrow (a lot on the agenda), but its roughly a 30x30x18 glass w/ a screen top. He has a croton, a pothos, and the umbrella in there with assorted vines and a piece of driftwood. I also have an auto-mister (not a mist king, but the same type of system - dedicated pump with a digital timer, multiple nozzles). Unfortunately, the umbrella plant is doing a fine job of shading is neighbors, so things will be rearranged next time we do a full cleaning. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but I think we're getting there.

He left me some feces today, and he does seem to need up his water intake a bit. Yellowish with a tinge or orange in the urates. I have him on 5 mins at lights on (7 ish), 5 mins at lights out (7 ish), and a few 3 minute sessions throughout the day, but he would probably benefit from a little more time added to his longer sessions.

One thing I should mention - maybe about 2.5-3 weeks ago, he got a tiny piece of something (part of a vine maybe) stuck in one of his eyes. It popped right out, but in retrospect, it wouldn't surprise me if it caused some damage. He wasn't closing that eye completely, but it wasn't all the way open either. When his eyes are open, the eye appears healthy, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is some irritation in there causing stress/pain. I will definitely have the vet check on that, along with the rest of the workup.

I've had plenty of reptiles throughout the years - snakes, a turtle, various frogs/toads, and smaller lizards, but these guys have their own thing going on. I'm really hoping we can get Mango back on track so we can have him in our family for as long as he can.
 
prion86 said:
If I remember, I'll post a pic of his enclosure tomorrow (a lot on the agenda), but its roughly a 30x30x18 glass w/ a screen top. He has a croton, a pothos, and the umbrella in there with assorted vines and a piece of driftwood. I also have an auto-mister (not a mist king, but the same type of system - dedicated pump with a digital timer, multiple nozzles). Unfortunately, the umbrella plant is doing a fine job of shading is neighbors, so things will be rearranged next time we do a full cleaning. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but I think we're getting there.

He left me some feces today, and he does seem to need up his water intake a bit. Yellowish with a tinge or orange in the urates. I have him on 5 mins at lights on (7 ish), 5 mins at lights out (7 ish), and a few 3 minute sessions throughout the day, but he would probably benefit from a little more time added to his longer sessions.

One thing I should mention - maybe about 2.5-3 weeks ago, he got a tiny piece of something (part of a vine maybe) stuck in one of his eyes. It popped right out, but in retrospect, it wouldn't surprise me if it caused some damage. He wasn't closing that eye completely, but it wasn't all the way open either. When his eyes are open, the eye appears healthy, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is some irritation in there causing stress/pain. I will definitely have the vet check on that, along with the rest of the workup.

I've had plenty of reptiles throughout the years - snakes, a turtle, various frogs/toads, and smaller lizards, but these guys have their own thing going on. I'm really hoping we can get Mango back on track so we can have him in our family for as long as he can.
Click to expand...
Hi there can you please fill this form out and take pics of the entire enclosure lights down. This will give us the information to give you thorough feedback rather then bits and pieces.

Here is some recommended information to include when asking for help in the health clinic forum. By providing this information you will receive more accurate and beneficial responses. It might not be necessary to answer all these questions, but the more you provide the better. Please remember that even the most knowledgeable person can only guess at what your problem may be. Only an experienced reptile veterinarian who can directly examine your animal can give a true diagnosis of your chameleon's health.


Chameleon Info:

  • Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
  • Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
  • Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

--------------

Please Note:

  1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
  2. Photos can be very helpful.
 
Thanks Beman.

I am familiar with the questions (and how often many keepers provide incomplete info).

Here's what I can share so far:

  • Your Chameleon - Male Panther. ~ 1 yr old. In our care for ~3 months. Weight not yet documented.
  • Handling - Maybe once a week, at his pleasure. He prefers my daughter to me as she provides most of his care.
  • Feeding - Mostly pre wing crickets, 5-10/day. Up until a week ago, we fed bugs with those orange cubes. Now, we feed with carrots, oranges, dandelion greens, bee pollen, and spirulina. Still working out a good balance on the bug food. An occasional hornworm 1 or 2x/week when available.
  • Supplements - Up until last week, reptical multi and Ca + D3 for every feeding. We are switching to Ca only for every feeding, Ca+D3 once a week, and changing the miltivit to 2x/month
  • Watering - Mist king analog. 5 mins at lights on (7 am), 5 mins at lights out (7 pm), and 2 mins every four hrs between. Definitely observed him drinking from the leaves.
  • Fecal Description - Most recent fecal (yesterday) indicated a bit of dehydration (yellowish urates). Never screened for parasites, but plan on it tomorrow. Poop is in the fridge much to the wife's chagrin.
  • History - Purchased from exotic pet store recommended by experienced reptile keeper. Came with "all we would need", but that turned out not to be the case. Pet store sold everything from snakes to dart frogs to macaws to sugar gliders. All non-humans at the store appeared healthy and happy. Humans seemed knowledgeable and helpful when it came to chams.

Enclosure Info:

  • Enclosure Type - Glass w/ screen top. ~30x30x18
  • Lighting - 100W basking light, UVB switched this week from CFL to 18" T8 5.0. Basking area is ~ 8" below screen top.
  • Temperature - Basking spot sits at ~82-85, enclosure bottom close to 72-75 (measured with IR gun).
  • Humidity - Roughly 45-60% measured via crappy dial hygrometer. Digital hygrometer on the way. Maintained via auto mister.
  • Plants - Live plants: Umbrella plant, croton, and pothos. Some artificial vines and a piece of driftwood as well.
  • Placement - Enclosure is in home office. Low traffic (daughter does some home school work there). Not near vents. Top of enclosure is ~5.5 feet from floor.
  • Location - ~30 miles east of Pittsburgh

As soon as I have some more info from the vet, I'll be happy to share. For now, I simply wanted to thank the community for the great information provided. So far, a few simple changes have improved things, and hopefully a vet visit will get us the rest of the way.
 
prion86 said:
Click to expand...
Hi there. See my feedback in red bold

Here's what I can share so far:


  • Your Chameleon - Male Panther. ~ 1 yr old. In our care for ~3 months. Weight not yet documented.
  • Handling - Maybe once a week, at his pleasure. He prefers my daughter to me as she provides most of his care.
  • Feeding - Mostly pre wing crickets, 5-10/day. Up until a week ago, we fed bugs with those orange cubes. Now, we feed with carrots, oranges, dandelion greens, bee pollen, and spirulina. Still working out a good balance on the bug food. An occasional hornworm 1 or 2x/week when available. At a year old you want to reduce his feedings Switch him to 5 every other day then after a few weeks kick him down to 3 every other day. They will start gaining fat and this creates is own health issues. gutload is much better great job.
  • Supplements - Up until last week, reptical multi and Ca + D3 for every feeding. We are switching to Ca only for every feeding, Ca+D3 once a week, and changing the miltivit to 2x/month. Ok I am leaning towards him having D3 toxicity. Calcium with D3 is fat soluble so it will take a few weeks for his levels to reduce. I would not give him any calcium with D3 for 3-4 weeks. Then it should only be given 2 times a month then multivitamin 2 times a month. These rotate week to week and then all other feedings should be calcium without D3. I would personally switch to reptivite without D3 for your multivitamin as it has vitamin A unlike the one your using. THey need this for eye health.
  • Watering - Mist king analog. 5 mins at lights on (7 am), 5 mins at lights out (7 pm), and 2 mins every four hrs between. Definitely observed him drinking from the leaves. this is fine.
  • Fecal Description - Most recent fecal (yesterday) indicated a bit of dehydration (yellowish urates). Never screened for parasites, but plan on it tomorrow. Poop is in the fridge much to the wife's chagrin. I am glad your getting a fecal done. So yellow or even orange in the urate is not a bad thing. you just don't want the whole thing to be that color. Up to 50% of it is fine with the rest being white.
  • History - Purchased from exotic pet store recommended by experienced reptile keeper. Came with "all we would need", but that turned out not to be the case. Pet store sold everything from snakes to dart frogs to macaws to sugar gliders. All non-humans at the store appeared healthy and happy. Humans seemed knowledgeable and helpful when it came to chams.

Enclosure Info:


  • Enclosure Type - Glass w/ screen top. ~30x30x18. So you will want to upgrade the cage size to a 2x2x4... I would consider screen unless you can go totally bioactive with the set up in glass and in that case you would have to get him the largest exo terra they make which is the large extra tall 36” x 18” x 36” (WxDxH)
  • Lighting - 100W basking light, UVB switched this week from CFL to 18" T8 5.0. Basking area is ~ 8" below screen top. So with the T8 it needs to be a 10.0 bulb and your basking level would need to sit 5-6 inches. Ideally you would want to get a T5HO fixture with a 5.0 or 6% UVB bulb and then basking would be 9 inches.
  • Temperature - Basking spot sits at ~82-85, enclosure bottom close to 72-75 (measured with IR gun). I do not like the guns for basking temps because they only measure surface area. The 100 watt putts out some real heat. I expect it is higher then the 82-85 your getting with the gun. Get a digital wired thermometer with probe to put on the basking branch at the highest point he can get to below the basking bulb.
  • Humidity - Roughly 45-60% measured via crappy dial hygrometer. Digital hygrometer on the way. Maintained via auto mister. glad your ordering the digital one. Just make sure it does not sit in the path of the mister.
  • Plants - Live plants: Umbrella plant, croton, and pothos. Some artificial vines and a piece of driftwood as well.
  • Placement - Enclosure is in home office. Low traffic (daughter does some home school work there). Not near vents. Top of enclosure is ~5.5 feet from floor.
  • Location - ~30 miles east of Pittsburgh

As soon as I have some more info from the vet, I'll be happy to share. For now, I simply wanted to thank the community for the great information provided. So far, a few simple changes have improved things, and hopefully a vet visit will get us the rest of the way.

Just from what you have provided. This could be a few things or combination of all. D3 toxicity from over supplementation of calcium with D3. Lack of Vitamin A, Rep cal herptivite only has beta carotene rather then vitamin A. And lack of proper UVB lighting. The compact bulbs do not provide what a chameleon needs. This can lead to MBD and other issues that you spoke about in your original post. For the D3 and the vitamin a and to know his bone health they would need to do blood work to know his exact levels. I do not see physical signs of MBD though. The Vitamin A deficiency can be fixed with adding the correct supplement in. And D3 toxicity can be fixed by removing the overdose and allowing time for the body to process out the excess.
I hope this helps. Let us know what the Vet says. hopefully they have chameleon experience. Let me know if you have questions about my feedback.
 
Just got back from the vet. They seemed to think he has some sort of systemic infection, but no way to know for sure until the bloodwork is back. There was evidence of thicker saliva, which is indicative of infection. It didn't appear to be obviously respiratory, but URI couldn't be 100% ruled out. She mentioned that the fact he was still eating/drinking was good, and she didn't feel that the infection was very advanced.

The eye that had a piece of something stuck in it is also infected, which may (or may not) be the source. The eyeball itself is fine, but she did see some crusties in the eye turret (I didn't notice anything, but I'm not a vet). The fecal was clear.

They gave him a shot of doxy, some sub-q fluids, and a vitamin B shot. We also have antibiotic eye drops. They ordered a blood profile/CBC, and they should have that back in a few days. Hopefully, we'll have more information then.

The vet was pleased with the husbandry, and mentioned that many keepers are absolutely horrible. The simple fact I was able to even answer all of their husbandry questions was a rarity in itself (thanks to the questionnaire). She didn't have any recommendations on what to change, but I'm open to what is suggested here.

This is my first time with this vet (good herp vets are hard to find), but she seemed knowledgeable. They are also an ARAV member.


Fingers crossed...
 
prion86 said:
Just got back from the vet. They seemed to think he has some sort of systemic infection, but no way to know for sure until the bloodwork is back. There was evidence of thicker saliva, which is indicative of infection. It didn't appear to be obviously respiratory, but URI couldn't be 100% ruled out. She mentioned that the fact he was still eating/drinking was good, and she didn't feel that the infection was very advanced.

The eye that had a piece of something stuck in it is also infected, which may (or may not) be the source. The eyeball itself is fine, but she did see some crusties in the eye turret (I didn't notice anything, but I'm not a vet). The fecal was clear.

They gave him a shot of doxy, some sub-q fluids, and a vitamin B shot. We also have antibiotic eye drops. They ordered a blood profile/CBC, and they should have that back in a few days. Hopefully, we'll have more information then.

The vet was pleased with the husbandry, and mentioned that many keepers are absolutely horrible. The simple fact I was able to even answer all of their husbandry questions was a rarity in itself (thanks to the questionnaire). She didn't have any recommendations on what to change, but I'm open to what is suggested here.

This is my first time with this vet (good herp vets are hard to find), but she seemed knowledgeable. They are also an ARAV member.


Fingers crossed...
Click to expand...
It will be interesting to see what the blood work comes back with. I did go through your help form above. Hope the little man feels better soon.
 
Hey cham fam.....

Blood work came back today.

The blood profile was perfect. Organ function was 100% normal, and no signs of vitamin imbalance.

The CBC showed elevated white counts, which is usually a sign of infection (I am very familiar with CBCs because my kid is a cancer survivor). Based on the specific elevated white cells, a systemic bacterial infection is confirmed. After a conversation with the vet, there is no obvious cause, but we did talk about the following:

-Environmental: having a glass cage presents issues with drainage, which can cause airborne bacteria (we know this).
-Prior nutritional deficiencies may have thrown his equilibrium off causing natural fauna to overwhelm his immune system
-Eye injury: this could have also caused his immune system to go off balance, and allow the infection to take hold.

A new observation - he isn't shooting his tongue well today. The vet indicated this isn't uncommon after an exam because the process can leave the mouth sore. I know this is often a sign of Ca problems, but given the blood work, the inclination is that it is a result of the exam. Besides...he is still very interested in food.

He was still not terribly active today, but his color was very bright, and I found him in different spots in his enclosure at various points throughout the day. The vet indicated it could take a few days for the treatments to manifest any results, so we will keep an eye on things.

Given his CBC, the vet would like to give him another shot of doxy in about a week to be safe, but she seemed positive in general.

New thing I learned today...it is super easy to administer eye drops to a chameleon.
 
Update -

First, yes, doxycycline.

Things were up and down for most of the week. Same lethargy, eyes closed, but still eating. We made some additional changes to the enclosure - removed the driftwood (porous, could possibly harbor bacteria) and material from cage floor (now just bare glass). We started shower sessions, and as the weather is changing, installed a ceramic heat element for night time. Per the vet, we continued administering the eye drops to the damaged eye turret.

Yesterday was his follow up/doxy booster. My daughter came downstairs and said she couldn't find him; sure enough, no cham on his usual vine. I was expecting to find him on the enclosure floor having moved to the great forest in the sky, but he was hiding in his croton!

Vet said the eye looked better, his saliva was far less stringy, and the infection in his mouth looked to be healing. The vet tech also said he was very feisty, hissing at everyone, and his color was much better. He has been very active over the last two days as well. He is starting to molt again, and his eyes have been open and active.

He even hissed at me when I moved him back to his enclosure from his travel box (but he seemed to forget all of that when I offered a cricket...which he was able to shoot with his tongue)

I don't think we're out of the woods just yet, but it looks like we're moving in the right direction.
 
Greetings folks!

An update on Mango -

He is two weeks out from his last vet visit. His tongue is improving. As the vet suggested, his poor tongue shooting was likely a result of the infection and the exam. My daughter still mostly bowl feeds him lately. He is always interested in food, from the hand or the bowl, and he especially likes to hunt. His eyes are always open these days, and he is always exploring his enclosure.

He even finished his shed this week.

I don't know if it was the substrate, nutrition, or the piece of driftwood we had in there, but after changing all of that, he is a happy chameleon now. His color is good, he is active, and he is ALWAYS interested in some crunchy crickets.

The moral of the story is that if your chameleon is looking like ours was, don't hesitate scheduling a vet visit. It might be a little expensive, but it is necessary once it is decided that a chameleon will be part of your household.

From Mango's mom (my 11 yr old):

Please, if your chameleon is not looking right, go straight to the vet ASAP. If you get him/her to the vet ,your chameleon will have chance at a healthy and happy life. So please don't ever hesitate!
 
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