Just seems unhappy...

[YogiGirl]

I have a 3.5 mo old nosy be panther chameleon who has been acting funny for quite a while now...

He puffs up all the time, and though I took him to a vet about a month ago about this, she said he was fine. (He did have parasites a couple months back, but we treated him with antibiotics and that no longer seems to be the issue). I thought it was probably a respiratory issue, because he puffs up so much (sometimes even sleeps puffed up!) and makes popping noises with his tongue sometimes too. She checked him though, and no bacteria...

So he puffs up and also changes weird colors... Sometimes will look really pale, but most of the time he's been a darkish brown/grey color lately.

He eats enough, and just shed the other day, but caught him sleeping during the day today, and that's when I thought I should check with you guys to see if anyone's had any similar experiences...

Thanks for your feedback in advance!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Greetings, and sorry to see that you still have concerns about your cham. What would really help, and what most of us have had to do at one time or another, is for you to answer these questions. They are taken from the health forum on this site and the answers will help folks here determine if there is some subtle change you can make to your set up that will help your cham:

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage construction (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and type of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.

Pictures are helpful

 

[kinyonga]

Are you sure its a boy?

 

[summoner12]

Pictures? and answer the care sheet gesang posted. It helps us help you a lot more than playing 20 questions.

 

[YogiGirl]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - screen, I'd have to guess the dimensions as being 18 in. height and 16in. depth (12" wide).

Lighting - Reptisun 10.0 UV tube and 40 watt ReptiSun basking lamp in the day time (7:30 to 6:30 since the time change); 40 watt infrared heat bulb at night (temps drop to around 60-65 degrees at night without it).

Temperature - 70 degrees F at bottom of cage, around 80 mid cage, and 90 directly under basking lamp. I keep the overnight temp at around 65-70 mid cage.

Humidity - typically between 50-70%. I mist him with a spray bottle every few hours when I'm home (1/2 the day) and keep a cool air humidifier on while I'm not home (probably 4 - 5 hrs. each day. I know this sounds like a lot of misting, but my little guy has a tendency to get dehydrated very easily and the vet said that with a screen cage, you can't really mist him TOO much...

Plants - Benjamin Ficus
Location - cage is on top of a tall dresser in my bedroom, near a window. The top of the cage is probably 6 ft above room floor.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Nosy Be Panther Chameleon, male (*I think*), approx. 4 mo. old, has been in my care since begininning of September

Handling - Try not to handle too often, on average once a week.

Feeding - Crickets mostly, sometimes pheonix worms and meal worms as a treat. He seems to enjoy eating free-range, so we keep about 15-20 crickets in the cage at all times (many of them will find hiding spots, so that many are needed to assure that he eats some of them). Worms are kept in a feeding bowl hung from a tree branch - we add a few more each day to the bowl, as needed. Gutload crickets with Vita-all and those little "water cubes" that look like jell-o.

Supplements - Miner-All, we dust them before they are put in the cage. We also use a liquid calcium supplement that the vet gave us and give him a tiny drop of that once a week (0.03 cc) I know I should probably have a better strategy for supplementing the crickets, since we let them loose in the cage and most of the dust comes off before he even gets them... don't know what a better option would be though...

Watering - Misting the leaves of the plant probably 5 times a day, for about 15 seconds each time. I'm thinking about getting an automatic mister, for when we go out of town... but they are expensive! Most of the time I see him drinking, but lately he hasn't been drinking as much (in front of me anyway). Doesn't really look dehydrated though.

Fecal Description - Solid, dark brown, white urate. He has been tested for parasite twice now (first time positive and we treated with antibiotics, second time negative). Last time was about 5 wks ago.

History - Like I said, he had parasites a couple months ago and was very near dying. But we treated him with Flagyl and calcium supplements that the vet gave us (and had to hand feed with baby food for about a week! Keep in mind he was only 2 months old at the time!! ah!) He hung in there and has recovered nicely, but hasn't really seemed as *happy* ever since

Current Problem - He's had a darker, greyer coloration, and puffs up a LOT (I'd say 50% of the time he is puffing up, even when sleeping!) Occasionally makes a popping noise with his mouth, but we ruled out a respiratory infection w/ the vet. Also, he doesn't seem to eat as much as I've heard young cham's should -- on a good day he prob eats 3 crickets.


I'll try to post some pictures of him SOON!

 

[Happy Cham]

Don't know if this helps or not, but our Panther Cham is also about 4 months old and eats about 15 or so crickets a day! Each time you mist it should be for at least 5 min. at a time. Hope he gets better soon!

 

[kinyonga]

Can you post a picture please?

 

[YogiGirl]

Sorry, this picture is about a month old

I took some new pics this morning and tried to upload them, but the files
were too big. I'll take some new ones this evening after work and post them. Hopefully this will help a little for now??

Thanks for your help!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I would suggest that the 10.0 UVB bulb is too strong for the age of the chameleon, and especially for the size of the cage, which you approximate at a 16" depth. This can be too powerful dose of UVB, and can also be harmful to his eyes.

Also, if you really feel more comfortable using the heat lamp at night, then make sure it is not raising the temps more than a few degrees. A temp drop into the 60s at night is fine for a cham to get a good, deep, night's sleep. You have the overnite temp at 65-70 mid cage, which means you are creating a basking area at night. THis is not good. Total temps of 65-70 throughout the cage, with no basking temp area, would be best. With the raised temps at night your cham may not be sleeping soundly.

It is recommended an Adult panther chameleons get a basking temp of about 85f. A juvenile can have temps lower than that. A basking temp of 90f would be thought to be a bit high for a juvenile panther chameleon. The 90+f degree basking ranges are good for veiled chameleons and some other species. But Panthers generally like it a bit cooler.

This may be why he is getting dehydrated so easily. You may also want to try misting him for longer than 15 seconds at a time.

The free range crickets being left in his cage at night may be causing him stress.

His/her eyes look irritated in your photo.

Personally, a few things come to mind:
1. I think I would change the 10.0 UVB to 5.0. But, since that would be costly, I would at list make sure the 10.0 UVB bulb was raised to at least 10-15 inches above the cage.

2. With him puffing up like that, and making popping noises, and with the history of force feeding and medicating, I would almost suspect aspiration pneumonia. This would not necessarily present itself with bacteria or virus, but is caused by breathing particles into the lungs. Did the vet listen to different parts of his body? I realize he's probably too small for X-rays. One of our vets who is very experienced with herps, has told us that reptiles can recover from aspiration pneumonia. You may want to contact your vet and see if AP is a possibility, and if she can recommend a course of action.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I am adding this afterthought separately, because I want to be sure you see it:

If there is a possibility of aspiration pneumonia, then your vet probably will recommend that you keep the night time temps a little elevated. Just wanted to mention this, since in my other post I recommended you decrease the night temps. But then I realized if he has a respiratory issue, most vets recommend some warmth at night. And also it would seem the misting humidifier you've been using is an excellent idea.

And, yes, updated photos, and also photos of your set up, would really help.

Oh, and I forgot, what type of minerall supplement are you using? DO you know if it contains vintamin D3? And, are you using it every day?

 

[YogiGirl]

Still working on getting those photos small enought to be allowed on here... sorry.

Thank you for the feedback - AP very well may be the case unfortunatley, as he has had those breathing issues for a while now. The vet I went to never listened to his different body parts - in fact, since he wasn't puffing up in her office she pretty much dismissed it all together, saying "sometimes they just do that".

Anybody know of any really GOOD vets in the Sacramento, CA area (specifically near Roseville maybe?) I don't really want to go to the vet I went to last...

As for supplements, I use Miner-All and dust the crickets each time I put them in the cage (usually every other day, cuz Yogi doesn't eat them all quick enough).

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

As for supplements, I use Miner-All and dust the crickets each time I put them in the cage (usually every other day, cuz Yogi doesn't eat them all quick enough).

Is it Minerall (O) or Minerall (I). The difference is critical.

 

[Kat77]

Still working on getting those photos small enought to be allowed on here... sorry.

Hey there,

If you have an account on photobucket, you can resize your images there. It will have an option "edit this image" or just "edit" and you can choose to resize to small, medium or large. I just did it yesterday for an email, actually. Give that a try. Photos will help everyone help you. Photobucket is free.

 

[Dsignrguy]

Is it Minerall (O) or Minerall (I). The difference is critical.

Yellow lid = indoors only

Red lid = outdoors only (even if he's only outside a couple of hours a week)


VERY IMPORTANT!!!

 

[YogiGirl]

It's Minerall I (yellow lid). His set-up is indoor.

Kat77, thank you for the tip on photobucket. I'm going to create an acct. right now so I can put those pics on here!

 

[YogiGirl]

Yay - it worked! Here's a picture of him puffing up like he's always doing that I took yesterday.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

It's Minerall I (yellow lid). His set-up is indoor.

Kat77, thank you for the tip on photobucket. I'm going to create an acct. right now so I can put those pics on here!

The Miner-all (I) is for indoor chams. BUT it contains the vitamin D3 which can be toxic to chams over time, if given too frequently. It is not necessarily meant as a daily dusting supplement. I think many keepers on this forum dust with Miner-all (O) for most dustings (perhaps lightly each day for young chams or gravid females and every other day for other chams), reserving the Miner-all (I) for once a week, and then a vitamin supplement dusting once every 2 weeks.

Build up of calcium, especially in Panthers, can cause hard deposits in the kidneys, leading to gout and renal failure. Build up of vitamins is also toxic and can also lead to organ failure.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Yay - it worked! Here's a picture of him puffing up like he's always doing that I took yesterday.

So, he wasn't just puffing up for the camera. This is what you see him doing, on his own, even when he doesn't notice you, throughout the day?


If he is just doing it when he notices you, then it may be his temperament, or you may be wearing colors/patterns that he find threatening. Or, you are approaching him too quickly.

But if he just sits there throughout the day, doing this on his own, than I would say there is a respiratory problem, or there is a source of some discomfort.

 

[YogiGirl]

He has definitely been puffing up like that on his own, for no "apparent" reason. All be sitting on my bed across the room from him, when he's not even paying attention to me, and will see him puffed up still.

Not saying that he doesn't puff up every time he sees me as well, but unfortunately that's not what has me worried.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I would PM Kinyonga, have her look at the pic, and ask her what she thinks. She posted earlier requesting a photo.

If he/she is energetic, eating well, pooping well, and the eyes look good (round and smooth) then I don't necessarily want to tell you to run out to another vet and pay for a second opinion.

Our juvenile panther chams never look particularly "happy". But then they don't puff up all the time, either. Our juvenile panthers are not as expressive as our juvenile veiled chams, which are much easier to "read".

Pardon me if you already answered this question, but what is his/her weight, and length snout to vent?