Jackson chameleon hurt leg

[Vince]

Here are some pictures of what i think is the beginning of edema. Please let me know what you guys think.

 

[kinyonga]

Did the vet test for gout?

 

[Vince]

Did the vet test for gout?

No, how is this done? Is it done by x-ray? Or blood test?

 

[Carlton]

It would be a blood test to check for uric acid levels. Gout results in swelling of joints too, and is quite painful, so could also explain his reluctance to use his foot, his overall sickness and not eating. But, if the vet found a fracture on xray...well then you know.

I've been listening in on this thread and obviously don't know your cham, but my impression is also that he is generally swollen looking. I've seen a few jax and never one as bulgy as this little guy. Edema from kidney failure and/or gout just seems a probability.

There's more and more evidence that montane species are quite sensitive to supplements and possibly there is a genetic sensitivity too (thinking back to his mom). Possibly his particular bloodline has a higher than average sensitivity to something in our herp supplements. There may be no definitive answer to this one. I'm so sorry for him. He's beautiful.

I had a cbb fischeri years ago who died from kidney failure despite being on the same diet and supplement regime as his littermates. The others were fine, mine died at 18 months and the necropsy tissue analysis showed the damage.

 

[xanthoman]

?

the only way to test any of this is with a complete blood panel workup, which your vet seems unwilling or unable to do. there is a definite difference between organ malfunction and organ failure. if it was mine, before i put him down, i would want to know that it was neccessary and a blood panel is the only way that is going to happen. these types of issues are more often than not due to over supplementation, even minor over supplementation can have its effects over time. the general concensus seems to be that montanes need less than other chams and that most chams need less supplementation as they get older. if you want to gleen any information from this forum (other than speculation ) you need to fill out the help form in its entirety with especial regard to supplementation products and regimen details and gutload specifics. an experienced and knowledgeable member (kinyonga) has brought up the subject of gout, which is often attributed to too much long term ingestion of protein and or too much preformed vitamin A. once again things seem to indicate some sort of diet/ supplementation issue, the supplementation info given seems to be reasonable, so the next thing to be suspect would be gutload and the first thing that comes to mind would be to ask, have you been using dog food or any sort of high protein as one of your gutload ingredients ? ( or wild caught feeders with an unknown diet) ? do you use roaches, and if so have you been feeding them the brown crumbly powder that comes with them?

 

[Vince]

the only way to test any of this is with a complete blood panel workup, which your vet seems unwilling or unable to do. there is a definite difference between organ malfunction and organ failure. if it was mine, before i put him down, i would want to know that it was neccessary and a blood panel is the only way that is going to happen. these types of issues are more often than not due to over supplementation, even minor over supplementation can have its effects over time. the general concensus seems to be that montanes need less than other chams and that most chams need less supplementation as they get older. if you want to gleen any information from this forum (other than speculation ) you need to fill out the help form in its entirety with especial regard to supplementation products and regimen details and gutload specifics. an experienced and knowledgeable member (kinyonga) has brought up the subject of gout, which is often attributed to too much long term ingestion of protein and or too much preformed vitamin A. once again things seem to indicate some sort of diet/ supplementation issue, the supplementation info given seems to be reasonable, so the next thing to be suspect would be gutload and the first thing that comes to mind would be to ask, have you been using dog food or any sort of high protein as one of your gutload ingredients ? ( or wild caught feeders with an unknown diet) ? do you use roaches, and if so have you been feeding them the brown crumbly powder that comes with them?

I do want to know is happening to him. When you live in Marquette Michigan your sources are VERY limited. I am a college student and can not afford to drive to Detroit Michigan where i might be able to find a reputable herp vet. If you have read my very first post you can see my supplements and supplement schedule. I have also described why we didn't do the blood panel. The lab where she can send the blood and get it to them quick enough has to have .5 ml of blood. She was afraid that taking that much blood would be more harm than good. She would have done it but my gut feeling was telling me to get him hydrated at least first. By the time i was able to get to the vet because this happened on the weekend he was extremely dehydrated from vomiting twice.

Im sorry if you dont like the way i am handling this. I unfortunately do not have hundreds of dollars to spend on him. I would have had the blood panel done but my vet was skeptical which made me skeptical. I mean she pretty much said he could die just from loosing that much blood. She did an equation to see how much blood he should actually have compared to his body weight, and that confirmed she would be taking a third of the blood he has.

With that being said would you still have gotten the blood panel done?

I know i need a different vet... ive been such a mess just because of the situation he is in and the situation of me not having a reputable herp vet for him. It literally tares me apart.

I do not want to put him down but i don't want him suffering either. I have never herd of or seen a chameleons health go down so fast. Like i said he was active and eating flies one hour the next he was sitting next to his vomit with a broken leg. Since then he has quit eating and drinking, now closing his eyes during the day.

Please do not give up on me... i want to hear what you are thinking about this. As well as others reading this forum. Just please do understand i really want to help him and am willing to do a blood panel i just didn't think it was the best idea because of her telling me it could kill him and since he was so dehydrated.

 

[Vince]

His feeders gut loads...

Super worms- staple is oatmeal. For hydration i give them potato, yellow squash, and lettuce.

Roaches- Staple is yellow squash, they do get lots of apple, some orange not much, carrot rarely, lettuce, and zucchini on occasion.

Crickets- Staple is oatmeal, for hydration i give them apple, yellow squash, and cricket quencher plus calcium. Never all at once, just depends on what i have at the time.

The little bit of flies that i used, but was his last meal had lettuce and carrot in the container for them.

 

[Cainschams]

Hey Vince,

Sorry to hear about your guy. My first cham was a jacksons and I suspect he had gout. I too raised him from a very young age. Maybe an inch and a half snout to vent. I had him for around 4 years. At the time I decided I needed to, I took him to a vet that really was not knowledgeable about chams even though he said he was. He told me to gutload feeders with dog food. That was the red flag especially when dealing with gout. At this time I had just got my first panther and was doing more research about chameleons Luckily I had the jacksons for as long as I did. Pet store knew the correct set up for chams but my problem was in the gutload. I used potato very often and also fluckers brand cricket gutload. Full of good stuff for the crickets but way to much protein for the cham. I also probably supplemented a bit too much. After the first vet visit he was going down rapidly so I put him out of his misery.

I would be interested to hear more about his diet along with supplement schedule through out his whole life. I am sure it has changed as he got older and started growing less.

I am sorry to hear the situation with your guy.

 

[xanthoman]

im certainly no stranger to money problems, or cham problems for that matter. all i can do is offer my advice, i noticed some posts back that you did some spraying with pedialyte, personally i would discontinue that practice. the reason(s) being, is that pedialyte contains dextrose,fructose, and minerals, which could cause eye problems. IF this is an over-supplementation issue, then im not sure adding more minerals is a good idea. if indeed that (over supplementation) is an issue, then is the best thing you can do is get this guy hydrated (with plain, clean water). the curious thing is, there is nothing in the nutritional or supplemental info given so far to indicate something that would indicate over supplementation (i dont want to get into a whole thing about gutloading, but i would eliminate any sort of white potato). so if oversupplementation is not an issue then why is he so swollen ? the only other thing that comes to mind is sepsis,(possibly due to his broken leg) in which case, he for sure wont be getting better without further medical intervention. i dont envy your position, i know how attached keepers can get and how helpless it can feel when there are no answers in sight. thats the thing about chams, problems like that arent easily corrected and once they go downhill they can deterioate fast. i know it's difficult, at some point you will have to balance his comfort between your ablity and desire to keep him alive. i suspect he had issues before his fall, healthy chams, just dont fall that often./ without new information, thats about all i got, there are several other montane keepers that have yet to chime in, i will be interested to hear what they say, and how he does, in the meantime i will keep my fingers crossed for both of you

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks for the compliments xanthoman...I still have so much to learn. I'm not a vet so I'm not saying that the chameleon has gout...just wondered if it had been ruled out. Gout can often be seen in x-rays as well as showing up in a blood test....BTW. IMHO the gout would only be following along with the organ issue.

 

[Elizadolots]

Question for the group: would a "HOUSE" approach be appropriate at this time? The vet doesn't seem that knowledgeable so why not present the "gout" idea and convince the vet to start the appropriate treatment?

Okay..if it's not Gout, then it would maybe suck, but my understanding is that Gout treatment covers a lot of other issues, so might still be good for the chameleon.

Taking into account the financial inability of the owner to get the tests that really should be done (and, I'm just mentioning I wouldn't be able to do that either), I think some sort of action is in order and treatment for inflammatory disease might well help.

Obviously the animal will need to be monitored very closely because if it's not Gout, then there will come a point where the benefits are not worth the cost.....

But...does it seem like something that should be tried if there's not a chance of a full workup?

 

[Vince]

This morning he has no grip. He keeps his eyes closed and the area around his neck is swollen even more. Ironically the leg that is not injured has lost some swelling. It is easy to see the lost swelling because of the loose skin on his leg. However even with the swelling down a bit in a leg he does not seem to be getting better but only weaker.

I previously posted that my vet had said if it were liver failure that he would get edema like side effects after the saline injection.

What do you guys think about what she had said? He is clearly getting swollen around the head area just like she said would happen if his liver was failing. Should i quit with the injections and just force him to drink.

My get feeling tells me this has been an on going problem for some time now. Why it surfaced itself with the leg injury i don't know. I have been looking back at pictures of him though and he was swollen looking as far back as last winter.

When he was younger i had found out that he was getting over supplemented with D3 after talking to some people on the forum.

It is possible that i didn't catch that mistake in time and the damage couldn't be reversed im afraid. I remember that this came to my attention because i noticed him getting chubby around his neck way back then. The chubbiness / sullenness has fluctuated but never went away completely. And now that he is sick it is swollen more than ever.

 

[Vince]

This morning he has no grip. He keeps his eyes closed and the area around his neck is swollen even more. Ironically the leg that is not injured has lost some swelling. It is easy to see the lost swelling because of the loose skin on his leg. However even with the swelling down a bit in a leg he does not seem to be getting better but only weaker.

I forced him to drink this morning using a syringe but removing the needle. Just gave him drops at a time so he wouldn't get any in his lungs. This instantly gave him life back in his face. His eyes are not sunken in anymore but still keeps them closed quite a bit. Unless he feels the vibrations of me coming to check on him, he opens them right up. Also, the first day since the injury that he moved so he could get heat from his basking spot.

I did not give him his injection of saline solution because of the swelling around the neck. Vet said to discontinue if this happened. He seems to be hydrated from the water this morning.

The three legs that aren't injured are going down in swelling. But the swelling around his neck seems to be getting worse.

You are all right on i am going to have to get blood work done to pinpoint the exact problem. Is it time i just bite the bullet and do it... take the chance? Because he isn't going to get better by just taking batryle and drinking lots of water. I new this from the beginning but i wanted to try before we took the chance of drawing too much blood and ending it right there and then.

Like i said before, the lab she contacted needs .5 mL (cc) of blood. He only weighs 125 grams. I dont know what to do...

 

[Vince]

I feel like i am over using this forum but i want to tell you guys every thing i can.

I just called my vet to discuss a few things. She may not be a reputable chameleon vet but she does have lots of knowledge on how their bodies work. As well as many other reptiles. She really suspects liver failure with the symptoms he has. She wants me to keep him on the antibiotic for at least the three to five days to give it a chance to work against any infection.

I brought up the blood panel once more. She said even if we did the blood test chances are very slim that we could cure him because of the advanced stages of the problem. Especially if its the liver like she suspects.

I also asked about gout. She really doubts this being the problem since he doesn't have knots in his joints. She said this is a problem that will almost immediately start showing signs. Which he shows no signs of it. Also, he has never been fed an extremely high protein diet nor have his feeders.

Please let me know what you think about this. I know a couple of you are really pushing for the blood work but she is so certain this is the advanced stages of liver disease.

I am so lost... i don't know what to do.

 

[Carlton]

I feel like i am over using this forum but i want to tell you guys every thing i can.

I just called my vet to discuss a few things. She may not be a reputable chameleon vet but she does have lots of knowledge on how their bodies work. As well as many other reptiles. She really suspects liver failure with the symptoms he has. She wants me to keep him on the antibiotic for at least the three to five days to give it a chance to work against any infection.

I brought up the blood panel once more. She said even if we did the blood test chances are very slim that we could cure him because of the advanced stages of the problem. Especially if its the liver like she suspects.

I also asked about gout. She really doubts this being the problem since he doesn't have knots in his joints. She said this is a problem that will almost immediately start showing signs. Which he shows no signs of it. Also, he has never been fed an extremely high protein diet nor have his feeders.

Please let me know what you think about this. I know a couple of you are really pushing for the blood work but she is so certain this is the advanced stages of liver disease.

I am so lost... i don't know what to do.

First, you are not overusing the forum...that's why we are here! We are not just constantly trying to second guess you or your vet who have him in front of your eyes and know his history...but we are also looking at it a bit more impartially too. Sometimes being to close to the problem (and being desperate and emotional too) blinds someone to new ideas.

Why does she think liver failure? How would one distinguish this from something else in a herp? It may be a moot point but I think I'd like to know in case a specific symptom triggers a connection to diet present or past.

Did an xray verify the ankle injury? Didn't read that anywhere or I missed it. That particular joint could have been particularly painful from inflammation/swelling that was a symptom of organ failure rather than a specific injury. A cham falling in a cage is so unlikely to hurt itself that severely. Also, the retained fluid from edema can get infected if it is there for a long time (the sepsis possibly). Would "knots in the joints" from gout show up on an xray? How does she know there aren't any? I'm certainly not an expert but can't gout show up as a more generalized swelling of a limb? I'm not hung up on gout versus something else, I'm just not ready to drop the possibility and it is something that can be tested for.

She's probably right about the risks of taking that much blood versus the chances of curing him, but without the blood panel you won't know really what is going on. I've never seen a cham look like this and we do know his problems are most likely systemic...don't know what else you could test other than blood (such as urine in a mammal).

As for this coming on relatively suddenly...this is a classic pattern of sickness in chams. He was probably getting worse slowly until the problem hit a critical level and things started cascading...more and more organs were involved and he could no longer hide illness with seemingly "normal" behavior from the rest of the world.

Either way, I'm sorry he's so ill. I understand how miserable you are watching it.

 

[Vince]

First, you are not overusing the forum...that's why we are here! We are not just constantly trying to second guess you or your vet who have him in front of your eyes and know his history...but we are also looking at it a bit more impartially too. Sometimes being to close to the problem (and being desperate and emotional too) blinds someone to new ideas.

Why does she think liver failure? How would one distinguish this from something else in a herp? It may be a moot point but I think I'd like to know in case a specific symptom triggers a connection to diet present or past.

Did an xray verify the ankle injury? Didn't read that anywhere or I missed it. That particular joint could have been particularly painful from inflammation/swelling that was a symptom of organ failure rather than a specific injury. A cham falling in a cage is so unlikely to hurt itself that severely. Also, the retained fluid from edema can get infected if it is there for a long time (the sepsis possibly). Would "knots in the joints" from gout show up on an xray? How does she know there aren't any? I'm certainly not an expert but can't gout show up as a more generalized swelling of a limb? I'm not hung up on gout versus something else, I'm just not ready to drop the possibility and it is something that can be tested for.

She's probably right about the risks of taking that much blood versus the chances of curing him, but without the blood panel you won't know really what is going on. I've never seen a cham look like this and we do know his problems are most likely systemic...don't know what else you could test other than blood (such as urine in a mammal).

As for this coming on relatively suddenly...this is a classic pattern of sickness in chams. He was probably getting worse slowly until the problem hit a critical level and things started cascading...more and more organs were involved and he could no longer hide illness with seemingly "normal" behavior from the rest of the world.

Either way, I'm sorry he's so ill. I understand how miserable you are watching it.

She really thought that it was liver failure because of the way he was retaining fluids. Also, something that really gave her signs that it was liver was the way he got edema around the neck after the injection of saline.

There wasn't an x ray done. She didn't think that it was needed since she could feel the play in his leg. Right above the ankle.

Yes after gout has advanced itself to the point where there are large knots, it can be found on an x ray. Im not sure if gout can result i swelling before the knots...

 

[Vince]

Well this is the last post any chameleon keeper wants to post but, Twitch passed away this morning. He suffers no longer...

I took him in to the vet today and had a necropsy done. It was hard but i watched for the educational value of it, and for the closure of knowing what the heck happened to the poor guy.

First when we started the necropsy it was obvious that he had been retaining lots of fluids. As some of you mentioned that was more likely the problem over being obese. We found our answer and it was no doubt the liver. The liver is broken up into the left and right sides as you might know. However, the right side was swollen compared to the left. Also, the whole liver was covered in little white cysts. My vet also pointed out the color of the liquid in the liver was not right. He smeared it on a white towel showing how brown it was. He mentioned that it should be more like the color of blood.

My vet explained to me that liver failure is a secondary cause from something else. With that being said there could have been an infection that spread to the liver but, since we know he was over supplemented at a young age signs point to that being the cause.

So with that being said i do thank all of you for the tremendous amount of help and information you have shared. This has been an experience that will never be forgotten.

 

[xanthoman]

R.i.p.

sorry to hear about your boy and kudos to you for being forthcoming with information and sharing it with forum members , i hope we have all learned someting. i know its not the ending you were hoping for, but better than long term suffering, i feel confident if you try again , you will do better, if i can help just let me know

 

[sandy mackie]

sorry for your loss youve been through so much..Id like to thankyou for the detailed thread ,new cham owners like myself can learn so much.Hope you feel better soon

 

[Smythwick]

Any answers?

I'm curious if you ever found out what the cause of his swollen foot was? If so did you receive a fix to help heal it? Any info would be greatly appreciated!! Thank You!!