Isos And Springs!

[The Wild One]

Alright, guys, I know that there's a thread already on this but I still have a few questions. A) What are the fastest breeding and eating? (Isos and Springs) B) What Is the best place to get them C) How do you keep them from escaping the enclosures?This is for a Bioactive Btw. Thanks!

 

[cyberlocc]

Alright, guys, I know that there's a thread already on this but I still have a few questions. A) What are the fastest breeding and eating? (Isos and Springs) B) What Is the best place to get them C) How do you keep them from escaping the enclosures?This is for a Bioactive Btw. Thanks!

1. Depends what you want, Size wise, environment wise, Tropical Isos, Arid Isos? You want Huge Isos? Tiny Isos?

Dwarf Tropical Whites are very prolific, very small, and will work good in cham enclosure. Might not be able to tackle poo quickly or at all until you have a big colony. P scaber is good for the poo business, breeds slower than the DTWs, and is much larger.

Springs, kind of less options, not many sites even tell you what species they are, they are just tropical or not tropical lol. Just with tropical.


2. Million and one places to get them, depends on what you want, and how much you are prepared to pay. Josh Frogs great place and a site sponsor.

3. You dont , they really dont want to leave, the tropical ones need constant moisture for isos, they are not bugs they are Crustaceans (Crabs, Lobsters, ect) Dry = Death for most species, especially tropical ones, even the more Arid variety need moist areas to retreat. They have their moisture, their food, their leaf litter, why leave? They are not very get up and go like roaches and crickets. They are happy and content to stay right there, in their suitable conditions.


You can look at other options of CUC as well, if you dont want large isos for poo eaters. You can do Tropical springs, and Dwarf whites, and then in some of below.

Super Worms, let them morph into beetles and keep a active super colony eating the poo, and be good little beetle snacks for your cham, as well as great CUC. Mealworms apply to this as well.

Earthworms, will also eat poo, and everything else, they are great at aerating the soil. Also great about ruining the soil, so keep numbers low, but a worm or 2 is great, their casings are one of the best Fertilizers there is.

Millipedes, carry a danger risk, they spray acid and can be toxic if eaten in quantity. Using some smaller ones, shouldn't pose much issue if any, I know Goodkarma has some in her Viv.

Buffalo Beetles (Dermestidae Beetles) will also clean frass, and mold and whatever else. Also will make a nice small treat for chams.

 

[GoodKarma19]

Awesome break down, @cyberlocc!

Super Worms, let them morph into beetles and keep a active super colony eating the poo, and be good little beetle snacks for your cham, as well as great CUC. Mealworms apply to this as well.

One consideration with supers: if you have a foam background, they will occasionally burrow into it. Nothing worse than that awful crunch crunch crunch sound! Not as noisy in GreatStuff, but really bad in styrofoam. Freaks me out. Had one get into a styrofoam planter, and the little jerk would chew all night!

Earthworms, will also eat poo, and everything else, they are great at aerating the soil. Also great about ruining the soil, so keep numbers low, but a worm or 2 is great, their casings are one of the best Fertilizers there is.

Instead of earthworms, I'd go for red wiggler compost worms. They're a smaller worm, and are apparently better composers than earthworms! I go through a metric ton of leaflitter, they're so effective.

Millipedes, carry a danger risk, they spray acid and can be toxic if eaten in quantity. Using some smaller ones, shouldn't pose much issue if any, I know Goodkarma has some in her Viv.

To circumvent this, either keep very small or very large milipedes. None of mine are larger than an inch, and I have never seen them "topside" during the day. The species I have stay underneath the leaflitter, and I only see them when I go looking.

 

[cyberlocc]

Awesome break down, @cyberlocc!



One consideration with supers: if you have a foam background, they will occasionally burrow into it. Nothing worse than that awful crunch crunch crunch sound! Not as noisy in GreatStuff, but really bad in styrofoam. Freaks me out. Had one get into a styrofoam planter, and the little jerk would chew all night!




Instead of earthworms, I'd go for red wiggler compost worms. They're a smaller worm, and are apparently better composers than earthworms! I go through a metric ton of leaflitter, they're so effective.




To circumvent this, either keep very small or very large milipedes. None of mine are larger than an inch, and I have never seen them "topside" during the day. The species I have stay underneath the leaflitter, and I only see them when I go looking.

Ya I would likely error on smaller. Like I was telling you, I was looking at doing GAMs (Giant African Millipedes) they are like 15-18 inches long, and 2 inches around. No Cham could even eat one, and odds are high they are exposed to them in the wild.

That was a neat idea to me, my daughter wants a GAM but they require a huge Viv with deep soil, that they rarely come out of. So I was going to give it a shot, until I found out they shoot acid 3+ feet. So that's a little dangerous.

And ya Red Wiggler's are also good. I still would be careful with adding too many, they stink and turn into slime if they die.

 

[GoodKarma19]

Ya I would likely error on smaller. Like I was telling you, I was looking at doing GAMs (Giant African Millipedes) they are like 15-18 inches long, and 2 inches around. No Cham could even eat one, and odds are high they are exposed to them in the wild.

That was a neat idea to me, my daughter wants a GAM but they require a huge Viv with deep soil, that they rarely come out of. So I was going to give it a shot, until I found out they shoot acid 3+ feet. So that's a little dangerous.

And ya Red Wiggler's are also good. I still would be careful with adding too many, they stink and turn into slime if they die.

I wish we could get large milipedes (legally) in Canada... I can't get any fun bugs here! I'd have loved to get some bumblebee or ivory milipedes. Ah well!

I feel like you're really have to harass the milipedes to get them to activate their defenses. RABS says they're totally fine with arboreal reptiles! But 3 feet is a lot of acid shooting. So maybe not, lol!

All worms stink and turn into goo when then die, haha! But that's alright. The rest of my clean up crew's on it! The one time I found a dead worm near the surface, it was absolutely covered in springtails. Definitely isn't want to overdo it, though. I think i started with maybe 5-10 in my 36x18x36, and I'm starting to see some babies now.

 

[cyberlocc]

I wish we could get large milipedes (legally) in Canada... I can't get any fun bugs here! I'd have loved to get some bumblebee or ivory milipedes. Ah well!

I feel like you're really have to harass the milipedes to get them to activate their defenses. RABS says they're totally fine with arboreal reptiles! But 3 feet is a lot of acid shooting. So maybe not, lol!

All worms stink and turn into goo when then die, haha! But that's alright. The rest of my clean up crew's on it! The one time I found a dead worm near the surface, it was absolutely covered in springtails. Definitely isn't want to overdo it, though. I think i started with maybe 5-10 in my 36x18x36, and I'm starting to see some babies now.

Ya Millipedes seem nice, for the most part. But 3 feet is alot lol.

I really wanted some native to Cham Millipedes,I wanted the Green Pills (gorgeous like like large green isopods, the rolly polly kind) but from what I have read they just die. Some enzymes or something get damaged in the heat of shipping is the theory. So they just starve to death in captivity .

So GAMs was the only commonly avaible option, but the 3 feet acid and their massive so I wonder if it would wreck plants.


Ya I threw like 3 in mine, smaller earthworms from outside, just happened to find them so chucked them in.

And ya I meant all worms .

 

[Rst_Cham]

I like giant canyon isopods. I started with around 25 in my bio active roach bins and now have hundreds, they seem to breed with hardly any effort at all.

 

[The Wild One]

If the mealworms are not recommended for chams as worms, are they still good as beetles? If so I cant get around 50 of them for 2$!

 

[cyberlocc]

If the mealworms are not recommended for chams as worms, are they still good as beetles? If so I cant get around 50 of them for 2$!

Idk, about the mealworm being bad thing. People say that mealworm are bad because they are chitinous (they have hard shells), beetles, as a whole are also very very hard shelled.

So from that logic beetles are also bad. However then we look at stomach contents and wild diets, as we were the other day, and we see that beetles make up 20% or more of Chameleons diet.

Is there a risk for natural compaction, sure maybe. However I think that's kind of over blown, just like the reason people use to be against Bio.

Bio was frowned upon, because of exposure to bacteria and mold, however a cham that is constantly exposed is alot more likely to be able to deal with bacteria and mold. Just like when us humans get a flu shot, which contains the flu were trying to not catch.

Maybe just balance, if you are going to allow beetles as a snack, then make your fed diet contain lots of soft bodies. So if beetles are a thing, feed lots of flys and silkies to counteract that snack.

 

[The Wild One]

Do roaches count as soft? Or are they still to hard

 

[cyberlocc]

Do roaches count as soft? Or are they still to hard

Depends on the roach, some are hard some are soft.

 

[The Wild One]

Dubia lol I don’t think I typed that part

 

[Lennoncham]

People say that mealworm are bad because they are chitinous (they have hard shells),

Ah yes this myth. They have about the same amount of chitin as crickets. Granted crickets have higher water content.

they real reason there not good is because they can’t be gutloaded to well. But then again neither can superworms or most of the other worms we feed but we still recommenced them.

also for the original question I have found porcellionoides pruinosus ( powder blue powder orange etc ) isopods to be very prolific.

 

[cyberlocc]

Ah yes this myth. They have about the same amount of chitin as crickets. Granted crickets have higher water content.

they real reason there not good is because they can’t be gutloaded to well. But then again neither can superworms or most of the other worms we feed but we still recommenced them.

also for the original question I have found porcellionoides pruinosus ( powder blue powder orange etc ) isopods to be very prolific.

Ya not really, lol.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...each-species-of-edible-insects_tbl3_316908496

Giant Mealworms are similar to crickets, but those are rarer to find, and have been altered with the use of Growth Hormones. They are as that says, a statistically different bug, a man made creation if you will. They are also the size of a Superworm.

They have less chitin to weight, as there shell stretches rather than grows, as they are forced to a larger size by growth hormones, it's a mutation in a way. A true "Mealworm" has almost double the chitin of a Cricket.


Vs a Superworm:

"Superworms contain less chitin and more protein. Superworms are more digestible than giant mealworms, and have a higher protein content than giant mealworms. If you are looking for a giant mealworm/superworm sized insect for your pets to use a staple, superworms are probably a better choice. If you’re looking for a way to vary your pet’s diet, consider giant mealworms. "

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/blog/2017/09/giant-mealworms-vs-superworms/

Of course then other sites, say that Giant Mealworms have less Chitin than a Superworm.

 

[cyberlocc]

Dubia lol I don’t think I typed that part

I don't like this image, as it's already proven incorrect on one count. However I think Dubia are soft bodies, so we will go with it.

Again, I don't like the Mealworm data, as this has no source backing it. Scientific reports, like the one I linked above state something else entirely. Josh's frogs also makes the same statement that Chitin levels are not the same between the Mealworm and Giant Mealworm.

That said the person who put this data together could have confused the two, I am not sure, as there is no source, no backing. Could have been a bad batch, diffrent sizes what have you.

In any and all cases, I still think the chitin thing is an over exggaretation. I'm sure folks have lost animals to impaction, I'm not sure if the mealworm was the issue.

 

[Lennoncham]

I don't like this image, as it's already proven incorrect on one count. However I think Dubia are soft bodies, so we will go with it.
View attachment 258060

Again, I don't like the Mealworm data, as this has no source backing it. Scientific reports, like the one I linked above state something else entirely. Josh's frogs also makes the same statement that Chitin levels are not the same between the Mealworm and Giant Mealworm.

That said the person who put this data together could have confused the two, I am not sure, as there is no source, no backing. Could have been a bad batch, diffrent sizes what have you.

In any and all cases, I still think the chitin thing is an over exggaretation. I'm sure folks have lost animals to impaction, I'm not sure if the mealworm was the issue.

man you know. That’s the internet for you. I have no idea what info on this to trust lol. You can look at 5 charts and all will say different things. Like the first chart you posted says mealworm larvae and cricket nymph. Well a cricket nymph is a pinhead cricket. What size was the mealworm larvae they were comparing it to?

I’m not questioning your explanation just questioning the data on this all together.

 

[cyberlocc]

man you know. That’s the internet for you. I have no idea what info on this to trust lol. You can look at 5 charts and all will say different things. Like the first chart you posted says mealworm larvae and cricket nymph. Well a cricket nymph is a pinhead cricket. What size was the mealworm larvae they were comparing it to?

I’m not questioning your explanation just questioning the data on this all together.

Agreed, it is hard to decipher.

I think the reasoning they are using the nymph is it would have the highest concentration of chitin I think? It's born with a thick exoskeleton, that then grows and thins out. That would be my assumption, but IDK we definitely need a more reliable setup in examples.

The second image though, seems even more off the wall, silkworms have more chitin then a cricket?? That seems insane.

All I can say, is personally having dealt with the 3 worms, I'd say mealworms are the hardest feeling. I don't feel like a Mealworm could be easily crushed, Super would be number 2, it's still pretty tough to crush I'd say. Giant Mealworms to me would be the softest of the 3, in my opinion which is scientifically meaningless. I'd say crickets are easier to crush than all 3, I actually afraid of crushing crickets, as I find they are easy to do so.

I don't know if any of y'all's views on crush ability are different though.

 

[Lennoncham]

Agreed, it is hard to decipher.

I think the reasoning they are using the nymph is it would have the highest concentration of chitin I think? It's born with a thick exoskeleton, that then grows and thins out. That would be my assumption, but IDK we definitely need a more reliable setup in examples.

The second image though, seems even more off the wall, silkworms have more chitin then a cricket?? That seems insane.

All I can say, is personally having dealt with the 3 worms, I'd say mealworms are the hardest feeling. I don't feel like a Mealworm could be easily crushed, Super would be number 2, it's still pretty tough to crush I'd say. Giant Mealworms to me would be the softest of the 3, in my opinion which is scientifically meaningless. I'd say crickets are easier to crush than all 3, I actually afraid of crushing crickets, as I find they are easy to do so.

I don't know if any of y'all's views on crush ability are different though.

I would agree with your assessment.

see that’s just makes blaming the chitin level even more unreliable if the data is for the freshly hatched crickets / larvae. Chams eat those for what a month or so.

I think the real problem is people see mealworms as the easy option so that’s all they feed. Which could obliviously cause all sorts of problems. That’s where the whole mealworms are bad myth started. With a varied diet every feeder has its merits I think.

 

[MissSkittles]

Question about using super worms in a bioactive: If put in while still as worms, is there risk that they may bite the animal? Asking in regards to my leopard gecko's tank.

 

[cyberlocc]

Question about using super worms in a bioactive: If put in while still as worms, is there risk that they may bite the animal? Asking in regards to my leopard gecko's tank.

Ya that might be a problem with a ground dweller. I have heard supers can do serious damage to Herps. So for a Crestie, I would err on the side of caution and not use supers.