Ok, I tried to leave this alone, but I just can't. Sorry to the OP for hijacking. Your animal is a male. Some very experienced and even commercial panther chameleon breeders have all agreed male. There really shouldn't be any question at this point.
And, others who appear to be very serious and knowledgeable have said it's a female....
First, she came here looking for advice on montium chameleons from people who know. Why? Because she didn't know. Does that really not seem like a safe assumption to make?
That she did not know how to care for that particular breed does not equal her falling for a scam. My first thought was that she had a friend who had a reptile store and was able to arrange this for her. She did say she was "lucky".
She also stated all the animals needed to get across the border "is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited...." Again, evidence was provided by both very knowledgable Americans AND Canadians that this was in fact false, with references even.
She said "They have sent all the documents insurance and everything and the vet and health certificates are coming with them with arrival."
https://www.chameleonforums.com/hel...hamaeleo-montium-36077/index2.html#post333857
"all documents" is not at all specific and while you assume (probably rightly) that it's incomplete or fraudulent, she thought she had what she needed to have.
As a simple Google search shows, internet scams originating from Cameroon are rampant.
Interestingly, they aren't about chameleons.
Also, if she somehow "knew" this person, like through a friend or relative, and knew she wasn't going to get scammed, she certainly could've offered us that information. Hell, a bunch of us would be lining up to buy from her seller if that were the case. She didn't give us anything like that. Not even close.
Correct, but if I were as defensive about something as she appeared to be I wouldn't have given you squat either.
Also, if it were a case of a friend "in the know" then she might well have been told "don't tell because normally he only deals with stores".
In fact, she made it sound like she was even 50/50 on the "seller's" claim they were truly going to be cb, or even montiums for that matter!
I agree she conveyed doubt about whether they were, in fact, wild caught animals. I sort of thought that added some validity to the story because if I were trying to scam some chick in America to buy my non-existent chameleons I would totally say "yes, this is the 4th generation of animals I've bred in my care"...not, "I caught the mother and she birthed them in my care"
Although more optimistic than the rest of us, she didn't know the seller or his reputation.
On what do you base that assertion? She didn't tell you so she must not have known? She said she was
sure they were legit, not "they seem legit". What, specifically, in her posts makes you assert as a fact that she did not know the seller or his reputation?
Why would you still "allow" that she knew what she was doing? This makes no sense to me.
In the interest of keeping her posting and thinking and maybe learning...yes, I would totally tell her that she seemed to know what she was doing as I did even though I suspected she might be a victim of a scam. Insulting people does not lead to them learning. It might sort of work in schools where people are forced to attend, but in a voluntary situation such as this, it's a complete failure. The person insulted leaves (as she did).
Praising people for the things they seem to be doing right can lead to them being able to recognize the things they are doing wrong.
While you may not have "sided" with her, you helped turn that thread into that nonsense about everyone picking on Canada when it had nothing to do with Canada and everything to do with Cameroon. That certainly didn't help, did it? I personally felt invested in trying to prevent her from getting scammed. I'll sure know better next time!
Well, if I made a thread go south, I'm sorry for that. But, as noted, it was not me that drove the poster away before she could learn important facts like people here have been victims of scams from Cameroon. Or, important tools like posting the pictures of the animals you intend to purchase where people might recognize if they were hijacked pics.
And, it's an absolute fact that the laws in Canada are different and that all the posters who said "you can't bring them in" and such were wrong because they based that on American law.
If pointing out that the laws in other nations are different is an offense...well...I guess I offended. Odd that all those who posted absolute untruths about her situation are not being questioned...well..maybe not.
The fact that someone on this board was the victim of a Cameroon Chameleon scam should have been a very early post, no? Yet, it wasn't. That information might well have made her sit up and say "oh...hey..." but it wasn't offered up until after her last post.
As for scams, the Embassy's home page for Yaounde, Cameroon has an alert right in the middle of the page about not getting scammed by Cameroonians
ooooooo...wouldn't it have been so great if someone had pointed that out to her? Let's look at at that...
that takes you to an article that lists the most popular scams being child and WILDLIFE ones!
http://yaounde.usembassy.gov/scams_warning.html
The perpetrators of child adoption fraud often claim to be indigent parents unable to care for a child or members of the clergy working at a Cameroonian orphanage seeking a good home for a child. Other versions of this fraud involve wildlife, including birds (often parrots), dogs (Yorkshire terriers and bulldog puppies are frequently offered), and monkeys.
Yes...I had actually read that and noted the absence of reptile of any kind...do you sort of see why it might not have been obvious?
If you saw 2,000 people in front of you flip a coin that always came up heads, would you bet several hundred dollars that your turn would come up tails? No, of course not. We tried to warn her that a bet with similar odds would end badly and that was wrong? What if it was your encouragement that lead to her getting scammed? That's ok??
Your analogy is meaningless as it has nothing to do with the real situation. Rather than telling her that there had been instances of people being scammed by the promise of a Cameroon breeder, people here just said "it's a scam". What you are calling a "warning" was, in fact, a statement that she'd made a mistake. No one said "I'm concerned" or "I'm worried" or "It seems questionable" it was "You should back out".
She'd paid for the chameleons already. Even you have to admit that they were not being shipped COD. (though, that would be a great way of insuring it's not a scam: require shipment only on delivery) So nothing I posted changed her situation.
Out of deference to your position as a moderator, I'll reserve judgement on someone who would try to impose completely impossible guilt on another.
Really??? I just reread that whole thread and your post above is the ONLY one I can find that questions her intelligence. A few people said they doubted she knew what "all" the required documents would be but that in no way attacks her intelligence.
um....hard to reply to fantasy.
Her last post was upbeat, optimistic, and stated that she would come back to tell us how they arrived the next day.
Are you Sarah Palin? Here's a link to her last post in that thread:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/hel...hamaeleo-montium-36077/index3.html#post334296
Yes, everyone seems to be so biased against Canada. I do not live in some igloo, i live right across from the US Detroit border. Canadian borders no longer require permits if you are IMPORTING. If you infact are the exporter you need an importing and exporting license and your CITES permit. All that my chams need to get across the border is their perfect health forms and vet checks making sure they are de paracited, which they are going to be arrived with. Again i will let everyone know what ends up happening on thursday when they are suposed to arrive. Thanks for all the info guys
I checked her profile and that is the last post she made. Here's that link:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/search.php?searchid=761930
She never logged in again after that. So, you don't think the animals not showing up couldn't have anything to do with her not coming back?
Absolutely possible. Proven as fact? No. Highly likely? I'd say yes. If it had been me that was treated so rudely here and I'd gotten my shipment of chameleons I would have come back and posted picture to rub your noses in it....maybe she's not as mean as I am.
Because, really, no one insulted her intelligence or Canada or anything else you thought you were reading.
If I were the only one to "read" that, you'd have a point, but it does seem that she felt it too.
I'll note that I didn't get the idea that Canada was being insulted. I just thought people here were posting information based on American Law and it's not the same as Canadian Law....
She took that very badly. I add that to my argument that she was being defensive.
to be continued
But, after this many posts in the thread, why bother? Best (biggest) sex my panther thread yet. Keep it goin'! LOL
hole many times, however I usually do try to say something nice when I do not agree with a person
Gotta admit, first intersex chameleon I've heard of. But, why not? Genetics and development don't always work the way they're supposed to in any species so why not chams? Fascinating. While Olivia sure looked female in color and pattern, I would've said undeveloped male based on the tailbase. Jim F. has also talked about the odd intersex panther here and there but I've never seen pictures. Sometimes males just don't develop their organs as fast as others. Remember this one? Less than 3 months between these threads: 
