Is it MBD or aging?

[Melvin]

I just posted a thread today about my 6 year old cham. I thought he just was old and they get weak an fell of the branches. like we humans get weak and need support. But I read a bit about MBD and he's grabbing his own legs all the time and he has no koordination (motor skills) at all. he can not get up from this position by him self. (look at picture). He tries and tries but he just lies there and grabbing his own legs an body. How long can a cham live? I don't have the money for the vet right now. Is he suffering? Should we put him down? I'm so confused, can't look at him like this.

 

[Bush baby]

More than likely it's old age. 6-7 years is pretty up there in cham age. The longest i've ever gotten a veiled to live is 7 years, and mine also lost coordination and was grabbing his own limbs during his final week….

Don't put him down. Just keep him comfortable.

 

[JoeVet]

The front legs look thick (could be angle) which could be MBD and they do tend to grab themselves like that. Honestly the only way to be sure is an x-ray. 6 years is a good age and there could be other things going on such as kidney failure which is common and would result in edema, neurologic signs and renal secondary MBD. The only way to be sure is a vet visit with an x-ray to evaluate the bones, a blood chemistry + Bile acids to look at organ function and a cbc to look for signs of infection. If money is an issue a vet can help evaluate and do the tests most likely to yield the best information. I would really like to see an x-ray and a chemistry on this guy.

 

[Melvin]

I don't have the money to pay for x-ray or vet visit. A vet visit in Sweden with x ray cost around 200-250 dollars. I called them now to see what it would cost to put him down and the said 350 dollars on the weekends and 150 dollars during week days. The strange thing is that he still eats and drinks normal.

Today he wasn't able to walk by him self. Should I just leave him on the ground like that? Still feed him if he wants to eat? I can't watch him like this, he looks so helpless. I will post a new picture from a new angle. So you can look at the front legs.

 

[Melvin]

Here's the new picture. but it's 11.00 pm in sweden right now so he's asleep and it's dark. write back if you would like another picture.

 

[kinyonga]

What supplements do you use SPECIFICALLY and how often for each? What do you feed/gutload the insects with? How old is your UVB light? What is the basking temperature?

I have a feeling it's MBD and he needs to have it corrected.

 

[Devokid]

If he is 6-7, then I really doubt that it is MBD. That usually strikes during bone development as that is when the need for calcium is the highest. In addition, you have raised him for that long without issue, so unless you dramatically changed the way that you are caring for him, I don't see that being the problem.

 

[kinyonga]

Just like people get osteoporosis in old age so can chameleons.

 

[JoeVet]

I agree that nutritional MBD is common in younger animals by less successful keepers but we can see it in older animals because with better husbandry the process can take longer to show up. Kidney failure can also cause MBD and similar clinical signs. If he is still eating and drinking you could at least try increasing the vitamin D3 + calcium. Given the advanced age we could be dealing with kidney or liver problems but there really is no good treatment for those. What has been your routine calcium/vitamin D3/UVB supplementation?

That is an outrageous amount of money just to euthanatize a chameleon. Is the vet aware that its a small reptile? Is there a humane society or somewhere else you can turn to? Really hate to see him suffer.

 

[jajeanpierre]

What supplements do you use SPECIFICALLY and how often for each? What do you feed/gutload the insects with? How old is your UVB light? What is the basking temperature?

I have a feeling it's MBD and he needs to have it corrected.

He's old, Kinyonga, really really old. It no longer matters what he was fed or if he has a good light. He may be suffering, but he might not.

Melvin, I would suggest you just make him comfortable. Give him thick towels and low natural branches with bark that are fairly thin--around the size of his legs and a little bigger. You might want to keep the towel moist. Don't worry if he doesn't eat. He looks like he has quite good body condition for his age. My gut feeling is it is not kidney disease because other animals I've had with kidney disease have wasted atrophied muscles and look really, really sick. I would think a reptile would exhibit the same body conditon/symptoms. He doesn't look sick at all, in fact he looks great in your picture. Maybe he is just getting weak. They will grab their own legs if they can't grab a branch, which he might not be able to do if he is so weak. Maybe he fell and hurt himself and will get over it. If you think the time is imminent, don't worry if he stops drinking. Dehydration is a blessing during the process of dying.

Melvin, I think he looks pretty darn good for 6 years. He's got a big fat tail, big fat chunky legs and feet. He's got every one of his toe nails and he looks hydrated. He looks like you've taken excellent care of him throughout his life. Help make his life easier for him physically. You should be proud of the care you've given him. I'm really sorry your friend is not well.

I do not understand why anyone would suggest anything but palliative care for a 6-year old chameleon who is losing his strength. Very few people can afford what it might take to keep this animal going for a few extra weeks or months. This is not one of those chameleons that is broken to bits. He's old. Sometimes you shouldn't treat animals or people for that matter other than making what time they have left good time.

 

[Melvin]

I haven't done any dramatically changes. I dust the grasshoppers/crickets just as usual.

Yes the vet knows it's a small chameleon. that's just the normal price to pay in sweden for treating lizards.

I will do as jajeanpierre said. i will make it as comfortable as possible for him.

 

[Melvin]

He's old, Kinyonga, really really old. It no longer matters what he was fed or if he has a good light. He may be suffering, but he might not.

Melvin, I would suggest you just make him comfortable. Give him thick towels and low natural branches with bark that are fairly thin--around the size of his legs and a little bigger. You might want to keep the towel moist. Don't worry if he doesn't eat. He looks like he has quite good body condition for his age. My gut feeling is it is not kidney disease because other animals I've had with kidney disease have wasted atrophied muscles and look really, really sick. I would think a reptile would exhibit the same body conditon/symptoms. He doesn't look sick at all, in fact he looks great in your picture. Maybe he is just getting weak. They will grab their own legs if they can't grab a branch, which he might not be able to do if he is so weak. Maybe he fell and hurt himself and will get over it. If you think the time is imminent, don't worry if he stops drinking. Dehydration is a blessing during the process of dying.

Melvin, I think he looks pretty darn good for 6 years. He's got a big fat tail, big fat chunky legs and feet. He's got every one of his toe nails and he looks hydrated. He looks like you've taken excellent care of him throughout his life. Help make his life easier for him physically. You should be proud of the care you've given him. I'm really sorry your friend is not well.

I do not understand why anyone would suggest anything but palliative care for a 6-year old chameleon who is losing his strength. Very few people can afford what it might take to keep this animal going for a few extra weeks or months. This is not one of those chameleons that is broken to bits. He's old. Sometimes you shouldn't treat animals or people for that matter other than making what time they have left good time.

Thank you for all the nice words, I really appriciate it. Its my first chameleon and I have had such a nice time with him. He brought a lot of hapiness and laughter these 6-7 years. They are amazing animals.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I haven't done any dramatically changes. I dust the grasshoppers/crickets just as usual.

Yes the vet knows it's a small chameleon. that's just the normal price to pay in sweden for treating lizards.

I will do as jajeanpierre said. i will make it as comfortable as possible for him.

Keep in mind, Melvin, I am not a vet nor someone particularly experienced with chameleons. JoeVet is a (pathology) veterinarian. But, I have had a lot of old animals and wasted thousands of dollars to keep animals going that should have just been let to either die or be eauthanized. In general, I don't treat old animals unless they are suffering. I won't let them suffer.

Animals get old. They die. It's okay to choose not to spend a lot of money to keep an animal alive (and often in poor health) for a few extra months or even to find out what is wrong that might be treatable. It's okay to let them die. We're all going to die sometime.

I learned a lot about dying sitting with my dad while he slowly died at a nursing home. One thing they don't do is give them fluids. Although studies on terminal patients are limited, they have found that pain was less in dehydrated patients.

I hope he just took a bad tumble and with a few days of extra special care, he'll bounce right back. You are in my thoughts.

 

[Melvin]

I agree that nutritional MBD is common in younger animals by less successful keepers but we can see it in older animals because with better husbandry the process can take longer to show up. Kidney failure can also cause MBD and similar clinical signs. If he is still eating and drinking you could at least try increasing the vitamin D3 + calcium. Given the advanced age we could be dealing with kidney or liver problems but there really is no good treatment for those. What has been your routine calcium/vitamin D3/UVB supplementation?

That is an outrageous amount of money just to euthanatize a chameleon. Is the vet aware that its a small reptile? Is there a humane society or somewhere else you can turn to? Really hate to see him suffer.

I use Calcium with D3 in it two days in a row and then i only use Multi Vitamin TerraVit 1 day and then repeat. I give him food 4-5 days a week. 2 grasshoppers or 2-3 crickets. It depends what the have in the pet store. There was a time i was away and could only feed him 2-3 times a week. Then i gave him 4-5 grasshopper/crickets each time i fed him.

I juse Exo Terra Repti Glo. One 2.0 and one 5.0. http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/linear_fluorescent_bulbs.php

Is it okey or can i do something better in the future if i get a new cham?