Is it just me, or......!?

[Psychobunny]

I just have terrible luck with panthers!

My first one, Squee Sr. had a birth defect and died very suddenly.
Then I got a Nosey Be from FL Chams, he also died.
Now I have Squee Jr. and he is being treated for visceral gout, and yesterday,
I noticed what looks like gular edema under his chin!!

I am VERY meticulas about every little detail of good husbandry, and dont
have any problems with my jacksons or veileds.

I have spent much time and money making sure everything is right.

So, my question is, are panthers just more sensitive and more prone to
problems, like gout, edema, etc?

I have a new baby male panther, 2 months old, and is doing fine so far.
I am being SUPER careful with him! I check his temps and RH twice a week,
feed him every day, he is never stressed, poops look good. And I am just
generally being very careful with my care for him.
I even intend to have him checked by my vet when he is old enough to give
a blood sample.

So, is it coincedence, bad luck?
All these chams I got through FedEx shipping, are panthers more prone to
shipping stress to the extent were it would effect their future health?

 

[Psychedelic Chams]

Were chams treated for parasites and what is your supplement schedule? But it could be bad luck

 

[pigglett79]

I feel ya. Both the panther I raised and the one we adopted 3 months ago from another owner have issues, but our jackson is doing great. It really makes you wonder. I am also very meticulous about my husbandry and even work from home so i do know they do get what they need. And I breed many different insects so try have a varied diet.

Sometimes I think it's just luck of the draw.

 

[Olimpia]

I don't know, I haven't found panthers to be more delicate than other species I've had. I've owned 6 different species and I haven't noticed panthers to be more prone to things than the others.

I do have the bad luck of receiving panthers with respiratory infections from the breeder, but once I get them back into good shape I have very few issues with my panthers. Maybe a little eye irritation now or then, but very rarely any few big, serious issues.

It may just be a lot of bad luck.

 

[SRTtoZ]

Luck plays a factor too. I've had the pleasure of having 2 chameleons so far, a Veiled and a Nosy Be and soon to be Ambilobe and have not had issues at all. No vet visits, nothing.

 

[EmmaChams]

I only have 1 panther and he's 5 years old and found him to be just as hardy as my veiled, neither have had vet visits

 

[symphonica]

Are the panthers you're getting younger than the veileds and jacksons you're getting?

If yes, that might explain it. The females (as with any other animal) lay far more eggs than actually survive into adulthood. I don't know what the survival rate is for chams, but I do know what it is for koi. These are captivity survival rates, under the best circumstances and without any predators, so the rate is a bit higher than if they were in the wild. At each round, you lose more and more. These are out of birth defects, just poor underlying health, etc., and nothing that we have control over. Sadly, they were just destined not to survive.

Survival Round 1: hatching eggs (about 80% hatch)
Survival Round 2: making it through the baby stage (about 62% from round 1; about 50% of total)
Survival Round 3: making it through the juvenile stage (about 60% from round 2; about 30% of total)
Survival Round 4: finally reaching adulthood, making it through the breeding process and living full lifespan (only about 33% from round 3; 10% of original # of eggs).

The younger you buy them, the grater the likelihood of them not making it to full adulthood - just out of fate - only the strongest (about 10%) survive. The younger they are, the more of these survival stages you have to rear them through. That's why the younger they are, the cheaper they usually are. And, out of those that survived, what slim percentage do you think are even worth breeding/keeping?

The greater the number of eggs that are laid in one clutch, the more there will be that won't survive. This is because survival rate is a percentage of the total. For example, 80% survival rate of 100 eggs laid is 80, which means 20 died. 80% of 1000 eggs is 800, which means 200 died. See, the greater number of eggs, the greater number of deaths.

 

[Chameleon Creator]

Interesting insight on that symphonica. That sounds logical.
Personally I believe that because people often seek to achieve great coloration on panther chameleons, they often continue a bloodline which may have health defects, further the amount of defects with each generation.
I don't know if this is true but it's what I think is possible

 

[symphonica]

Interesting insight on that symphonica. That sounds logical.
Personally I believe that because people often seek to achieve great coloration on panther chameleons, they often continue a bloodline which may have health defects, further the amount of defects with each generation.
I don't know if this is true but it's what I think is possible

I definitely agree, and this is the case with any captive-bred animal. A heavy focus on physical appearance has compromised health, and even temperament. This is because unfortunately, people do still judge a book by its cover, and we're more willing to pay a high price for an animal with good looks, than one that may not be as visually appealing but has a nicer temperament. And health, you wouldn't really know from the get-go unless the breeder was honest about any genetic concerns throughout its lineage.

 

[Psychobunny]

Well, I dont know, 3 panthers in a row with issues, and zero issues with
every other species I have ever owned is to weird to just be coincedence,
but it's possible I guess

Vet told me the both Squee Sr and Squee Jr likely inherited their problems
at birth, but the breeders of both animals told me they have not heard any
problems with the rest of the clutch

Is it possible that there are hidden genitic problems that do not show up
until later (if at all)?

It is likely that Squee Jr has kidney or liver problems.
I have always been very careful with suppliments. I use plain calcium with
no phosphorus or D3 with just about every feeding, and they get repashy
calcium plus once or twice a week, and a multivitamin once a month.
I also have a Solarmeter, and check the UVB outputs regularly, and they get
plenty of natural sun in the spring and summer.
I do have calcium with D3, but only use that one a month because the repashy product already has D3 in it. I also switched to the LoD formula.

 

[Psychobunny]

Are the panthers you're getting younger than the veileds and jacksons you're getting?

If yes, that might explain it. The females (as with any other animal) lay far more eggs than actually survive into adulthood. I don't know what the survival rate is for chams, but I do know what it is for koi. These are captivity survival rates, under the best circumstances and without any predators, so the rate is a bit higher than if they were in the wild. At each round, you lose more and more. These are out of birth defects, just poor underlying health, etc., and nothing that we have control over. Sadly, they were just destined not to survive.

Survival Round 1: hatching eggs (about 80% hatch)
Survival Round 2: making it through the baby stage (about 62% from round 1; about 50% of total)
Survival Round 3: making it through the juvenile stage (about 60% from round 2; about 30% of total)
Survival Round 4: finally reaching adulthood, making it through the breeding process and living full lifespan (only about 33% from round 3; 10% of original # of eggs).

The younger you buy them, the grater the likelihood of them not making it to full adulthood - just out of fate - only the strongest (about 10%) survive. The younger they are, the more of these survival stages you have to rear them through. That's why the younger they are, the cheaper they usually are. And, out of those that survived, what slim percentage do you think are even worth breeding/keeping?

The greater the number of eggs that are laid in one clutch, the more there will be that won't survive. This is because survival rate is a percentage of the total. For example, 80% survival rate of 100 eggs laid is 80, which means 20 died. 80% of 1000 eggs is 800, which means 200 died. See, the greater number of eggs, the greater number of deaths.

Well, my new panther is a little over 2 months old. I was hesitant in getting
one that young, but I know the breeder will take care of me if something
bad should happen.

Do you think the stress of shipping is greater on a young, 2 month old animal
then it is on an older one?

Also, if the breeder is in, say, Calif., and I am in MD, on the other end of the
country, with way different climate, that that has anything to do with it?

 

[symphonica]

Well, I dont know, 3 panthers in a row with issues, and zero issues with
every other species I have ever owned is to weird to just be coincedence,
but it's possible I guess

Vet told me the both Squee Sr and Squee Jr likely inherited their problems
at birth, but the breeders of both animals told me they have not heard any
problems with the rest of the clutch

Is it possible that there are hidden genitic problems that do not show up
until later (if at all)?

It is likely that Squee Jr has kidney or liver problems.
I have always been very careful with suppliments. I use plain calcium with
no phosphorus or D3 with just about every feeding, and they get repashy
calcium plus once or twice a week, and a multivitamin once a month.
I also have a Solarmeter, and check the UVB outputs regularly, and they get
plenty of natural sun in the spring and summer.
I do have calcium with D3, but only use that one a month because the repashy product already has D3 in it. I also switched to the LoD formula.

Oh, absolutely possible to end up with hidden, genetic problems later during life, especially if it's recessive. The breeder may not have known about it if it's a new pair. What it means when a trait is recessive, is that you need to have both the mother and father be carriers. They're just carriers, and do not display any symptoms themselves. There's a 25% chance that they will end up with the trait.

For example, they now think that breast cancer may have a genetic component to it. You don't know you will end up with breast cancer at birth or during your childhood and adolescent years, do you? If there's been a strong family history, then they will recommend stringent testing or even mastectomy before they've even detected anything, just to get rid of the source.


If you want to get more scientific:

RR = dominant, have symptoms
rr = don't have it, no symptoms
Rr = recessive, no symptoms, but can pass it onto offspring.

If you breed two recessive parents, you have Rr x Rr
If you multiply all of the offspring possibilities, taking one from the mom and one from the dad, you end up with:
RR
Rr
rr
rR

So, you have a 25% chance of rr, that the offspring will not have the disorder at all.
You have a 50% chance of Rr, where offspring won't show any symptoms themselves, but can pass it onto their offspring.
And 25% of RR, that the offspring will end up with the disorder and show all the symptoms.


I'm not sure how much they currently know about different chameleon species and the genetics behind their traits and disorders.

 

[PoshPenny]

Bunny you are such a good owner and dedicated, I dont think its anything you are doing and could just be bad luck. Your free range is pretty awesome, and you go above and beyond. I hope your new guy lives a long and healthy life. Best wishes to you both.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Ive not found panthers to be at all delicate. Indeed they seem to stand up well to less than ideal husbandry.

maybe you need to buy from a different breeder?

 

[Psychobunny]

Bunny you are such a good owner and dedicated, I dont think its anything you are doing and could just be bad luck. Your free range is pretty awesome, and you go above and beyond. I hope your new guy lives a long and healthy life. Best wishes to you both.

Thank you, that's very nice of you to say
It's true, I am totally neurotic about the care of my chams, my friends and
my brother think I'm nuts, but that's their problem!
My doc says I'm 'borderline' OCD and stress too much over things that are
out of my control!!
So maybe that, plus just plain old 'crappy luck' is the answer?!

All 4 of my panthers came from different breeders; my nosy be came from
FL Chams, Squee Sr from the Kammer's, Squee Jr and my new boy, Slinky,
from Komeleons (different sires).

Maybe I am just too paranoid!! I don't think Squee has any life-threatening
problem that cant be manages through careful husbandry.
But he will likely never be totally 'normal' and will require special care the
rest of his life.