Incubator

[Brad Ramsey]

So the veiled eggs I have "cooking" are 6 months old, and I have gradually raised the incubation temps over that period from 63 degrees f. to 76 degrees.
The last increase occurred yesterday and was a big one ... from 69 degrees to 76.
In order to achieve this temperature I had to remove the container from the cupboard it was in, to a bottom dresser drawer and create a situation similar to how I think Lynda Horgan incubates her eggs.
The container is now resting on 1x2's over a heating pad that is set on low.
This is working very well and has (for the last 24 hours) kept the eggs at a constant 76.6.

-Brad

 

[Nicodemayo]

Has someone used this same method that you are imitating? I will be curious to see how long they take to hatch, especially with lows at 63. My veiled clutch hatched a couple weeks ago with temps from 73-77 and it took them exactly 8 months to the day to begin hatching, then it took 6 days for all of them hatch out. Have you candled any of them to get a rough idea where they are in development?

 

[BocaJan]

Mine are all sitting in a closet and are at the whim of the temp of my house. I keep it at a constant 75. Do you forsee any issues? I was thinking about moving them in several months to my sunroom closet where it is a little warmer. The oldest clutch of eggs are 4 months old.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I've done this, and it seems to work fine. My last clutch (hatching NOW), took longer than usual, due to the temps during the fall/winter. They went down to the low 60s at ngiht quite often. I finally found a space heater, which brought the temps up a bit. Last month, I stuck the "incubator" (a styrofoam cooler with egg containers in it) atop of the roach colonies, which are always warm. Temps got into the upper 70's eventually. They hatched about a month later. All seem good and strong so far - pretty big, too. Should be after 9 months.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I am not specifically imitating anyone's incubation schedule.
The temperatures are partly due to it being winter and how warm we keep the house, and partly because I did want to (initially) see how long they would take left alone in the cupboard at those temps.
I have moved them to other (warmer) cupboards to gradually increase the temps over the last 6 months ... but could never get the interior of the container higher than 69.
Now at 6 months incubating, I have changed my thinking and decided they would benefit from some warmer temps.
I have not candled them, but they have continued to grow and have a pinkish color to them.
I will most likely incubate my next clutch at a constant 76 or perhaps move them to that temp sooner than 6 months.

-Brad

 

[Eric Adrignola]

same deal here - I've found that they hatch best when left at room temp. IF room temp is indie their limits, of course!

When I make a purpose-built incubator, it's more stressful.... easier to find a nice, dark, safe spot and let them be - just like nature.

...of course, wit the way temps get int he fall/winter, that may be more of a problem than an incubator. Pain in the butt to try to find a good spot that's stable enough for them.

 

[Trace]

I'm not sure what deep soil temperatures would be in Yemen (anyone ever done a study on that?) but wouldn't the natural seasonal variations be better in the long run for the eggs? Yeah it may take a little longer to hatch but perhaps the offspring might be healthier for it. Also, do you not think that the sudden temperature fluctuation from 69F to 76F might be detrimental to the eggs?

Trace

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I've tried to keep temp fluctuations slow. When they're in a heated environemnt (during the winter)I keep them in an insulated container for just that. I've always had longer incubations and stronger bigger babies when I allow the temps to fluctuate. The only problem with that now is that I do not have any room in this house where I can keep them within a healthy range for so long. Unless I want to put them with my in-laws...

 

[Nicodemayo]

Also, do you not think that the sudden temperature fluctuation from 69F to 76F might be detrimental to the eggs?

Trace

I was thinking the same thing. A gradual increase may have been more appropriate but im sure theyll be fine. Baby veileds are about has hardy as it gets (as far as chameleons go) and in my personal opinion, the eggs are much more resilient than people cut them out to be. large rapid increases with other species may be more detrimental to the neonate but i very rarely hear of deformities in veileds as opposed to panthers or other species.

Mine are all sitting in a closet and are at the whim of the temp of my house. I keep it at a constant 75. Do you forsee any issues? I was thinking about moving them in several months to my sunroom closet where it is a little warmer. The oldest clutch of eggs are 4 months old.

Jan, the only problem i would see with keeping them at a straight constant temp would be breaking them of diapause. I think a +-3 or 4 degree flux is healthy for them imo

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Very important: emp increases, gradual or abrupt, must not come at the "Wrong" time. I had an entire clutch hatch out early and deformed due to temp increases. I had them in a closet in my old home, and it got too warm during the day during a crucial (as in too early stage in their development). They hatched out at about 5.5 months with deformed eyes. Their eyelids were not fused anterior to the normal eye opening, and they couldnt' eat.

All of them died after 3 weeks. yeah, three weeks. Those tiny things were active and strong for up to three weeks with no food. Crazy.

 

[BocaJan]

Would it be best to keep my eggs at 75 like they have been?

 

[Trace]

Baby veileds are about has hardy as it gets (as far as chameleons go) and in my personal opinion, the eggs are much more resilient than people cut them out to be.

True.

We as keepers might not see the immediate effects of rushing calyptratus babies (or pardalis or that matter) out of their eggs at 5 or 6 months incubation though. They hatch, they grow, the new keepers are happy. The new breeders get kudos. These babies live a good life. (Based on proper husbandry of course). But perhaps the long term, multigenerational fitness of the species in captivity might be harmed because of the speed at which we want to get these babies to market.

I don't know. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong - it's been a long while since I worked with any oviparous species.

Trace

 

[Nicodemayo]

Very important: emp increases, gradual or abrupt, must not come at the "Wrong" time. I had an entire clutch hatch out early and deformed due to temp increases. I had them in a closet in my old home, and it got too warm during the day during a crucial (as in too early stage in their development). They hatched out at about 5.5 months with deformed eyes. Their eyelids were not fused anterior to the normal eye opening, and they couldnt' eat.

All of them died after 3 weeks. yeah, three weeks. Those tiny things were active and strong for up to three weeks with no food. Crazy.

Ive noticed that temp flux deformities seem to effect the eyes the most possibly because i think they're one of the first organs to develop. Ive seen some strange panther deformities and most of them are deformities in the head or eyes but ive seen odd tails, limbs, and misshaped backbones and theres all sorts of them i havnt seen im sure. Check this little dude out that hatched out two days before Christmas. His egg was positioned in the corner of the Tupperware so who knows what flux he saw.

He has one eye that works fine and half of his head is dented and his other eye just looks like a hole.

 

[Nicodemayo]

True.

We as keepers might not see the immediate effects of rushing calyptratus babies (or pardalis or that matter) out of their eggs at 5 or 6 months incubation though. They hatch, they grow, the new keepers are happy. The new breeders get kudos. These babies live a good life. (Based on proper husbandry of course). But perhaps the long term, multigenerational fitness of the species in captivity might be harmed because of the speed at which we want to get these babies to market.

I don't know. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong - it's been a long while since I worked with any oviparous species.

Trace

I agree completely. You could cook the eggs at 81 and have veileds hatch at 5.5 months old but the neonates will be small and while most will live, some will die but who knows how well they will breed when THEY reach maturity and if they breed, god knows what they're hatchlings may be like. The development of a chameleon egg is a science in its own and it would be interesting to see more people try new methods but most stick with the tried and true methods. Im trying some different methods and playing with temps with some of my panther clutches. Not to get them to hatch out quickly but i think they're is a level of control that you can have on a clutch of eggs that no one has quite figured out yet. Sure i can stick my eggs in a closet and have them hatch but I know me and some other keeps would love to know more on how eggs work and what temps work best, which as far as im concerned, is still a mystery.

 

[Kent67]

Just thought I'd add a sub-thought to this conversation. When I incubated my first clutch of panthers the only literature available recommended a constant 82 degree temp throughout incubation (de Vosjoli and breeder's care sheets), and for the most part people were being successful with it. My first clutch was set at 80F and fluctuated only a degree or so either way for the duration. One hundred percent hatched after 7 months and were very healthy until sold.

I have however also seen the missing eyes phenomenon in some Ch. (T.) quadricornis gracilior hatchlings. I'd always heard to keep the eggs lower than 74F but this clutch incubated over the summer and got up to 76F for a number of days. Three babies failed to emerge and when excised had two eyes between the three of them; two with one each and one with two empty holes where they should've been. Otherwise they looked completely developed. Of the three babies that hatched naturally, one had an eyelid with a slit in it all the way to the rim where it was not connected. He was always on the very thin side and lived around 8 or 9 months before crashing out of nowhere. I always thought the incubation temps getting too high were the most likely reason for the deformities.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

This is all really great information!
I have no desire to rush the development of these eggs .... just thought they needed to be a little warmer after 6 months.
A gradual raising of the temp would have been preferable, and it did take awhile to reach 76 .... but not more than a day.
It's difficult to be too gradual when you're using heating pads, different cupboards and dresser drawers.
Eric, I like the idea of insulating the container in a styrofoam cooler to slow the warm up.
I think letting them cool at night (a few degrees) is a good idea.
I have tried to candle them tonight ... but I am no good at figuring out what I'm seeing (if anything) and I'm not sure I have a powerful enough flashlight.
Thanks everyone for your contributions on this thread ... it's very helpful.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Okay
As with everything chameleon related here: it's all an experiment.
I try to work within the parameters of what I have learned from other keepers and my own experience.
It did concern me when Trace brought up the possible detriment of a dramatic increase in temperatures and so I adjusted again (that night) and the temp slowly dropped to 70.
Now I think I have perfected my incubator (maybe)
I took the heating pad out and positioned it on an aluminum roasting pan under the bottom drawer of the dresser and turned the temp up to high.
Slowly (over the last day and a half) the temp has risen to 74 degrees and seems to be maintaining.
I am watching it like a hawk right now and can adjust the temp setting if I need to. ie: switch it to medium if it starts to get too warm etc.
Hopefully the day of 76.6 degrees did not hurt the eggs ... time will tell.

-Brad

 

[ciafardo 4]

I use a comercial incubator in wich i had kept at a constant 78f veilds hatched in 6 to 7 months and panthers 9 to 10months.Jim from chameleon company told me to incubate the first two weeks at 78f then drop to 64f for 4 to 6 weeks then back up to 78f . He says that panthers will hatch at 5 to 5and half months because you trick the diapause. I am currently doing this method with two clutches of panther eggs i just moved them back up to 78f. Five and a half months sounds alot better than 9 to 10.

 

[Justin Carl]

Just a thought on my experience.
Brad, I did it backwards from what you did, but would anticipate you having neonates soon.
I had my veiled eggs incubating around 76-78 degrees for a constant 6 months.
Everything that was chameleon related was at my work, chameleons, feeders, eggs, etc.
When I lost my job, I took the eggs out of the incubator and placed them inside a cool closet.
My closet is around 73 degrees.
A week and a half later....BABIES!
They did hatch out a little earlier than I had hoped, but so far everything seemed to have worked out.
I only had one chameleon not make it out of the eggs and two eggs that didn't even pip.
So out of 47 total eggs, 44 actually made it.
I would also like to notreccomend incubating your eggs this way.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Not recommend incubating the way you did ... or the way I am doing it?

I don't know about seeing babies soon. It seems to me that yours would have better opportunity to grow/develop at the warmer temps for 6 months, where mine have been kept quite cool (lower 60's most of the time).
I was actually thinking mine would take quite a bit longer.
Again ... time will tell.

-Brad