Incubator?

[Chameleon Brothers]

How essential is it to use an incubator for chameleon eggs? They are for ambilobe panther chameleon.

I watched some video online and it seemed that there is alternatives if you keep them in a closet and keep a close eye on them. Wasn't sure if temperature fluctuations can kill them or not.

 

[fluxlizard]

Temperature fluctuations are a good thing for chameleon eggs.

 

[Chameleon Brothers]

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CAn you please explain. My friend is determined that it could kill them...

 

[fluxlizard]

Sure-

I've incubated groups a variety of ways in the past 20 some years including constant temperatures, day/night fluctuations of 10-12 degrees, constant warm for a few weeks followed by a cool dormant period for a couple of months followed by warm again to break diapause and induce development, and a combination- warm for a couple of weeks, cool couple of months, followed by warm day/cool night fluctuations.

Constant temps result in longer incubations and although I haven't taken measurements, my general impression, and the impression of other breeders whose opinion I respect, has been that lengthy incubations tend to result in smaller hatchlings- possibly development is finally triggered as a last ditch survival mechanism when environment does not provide the necessary cues that spring has sprung and it's time to develop. Generally these incubations last from 7-9 months with the longer seemingly tending to hatch out smaller and a bit more delicate. I think my record length was something like a 13 month incubation.

day/night temperature fluctuations result in incubation lengths closer to 6-8 months. Day temp around 80, night temp around 70 give or take a couple of degrees at both ends. shortest I think I got was around 5 and 1/2 months.

Similar seems to occur for the seasonal cooling into the mid 60s for a couple of months, maybe a bit shorter- more like 6-7 months on average maybe. I've only used this a couple of times- it was a new idea to me that I found here on the forums. So I don't have a lot of experience to draw on.

I did the seasonal and day/night combo only once and plan to use it again in the future- got my shortest incubation time ever- but can't remember exactly what it was not (had a fire last year- maybe I reported the incubation length here on the forums in a past post from a year or two back- I think i did but don't feel like searching through my posts for it). Maybe it was right around 5 months or something- can't remember any more.

So, yeah- if your fluctuations are kind of a daily and seasonal rythm kind of thing, it is better for the eggs- triggers development and breaks diapause sooner. Babies seem to hatch larger and stronger.

 

[Chameleon Brothers]

..

Thanks, this is extremely helpful. So in shirt, you would recommend not using an incubator? Is there a chance that the eggs can die if temperatures reach certain extremes?

 

[fluxlizard]

Whether to use an incubator just depends on what method you want to try and what your goal is.

If you just want to hatch baby chameleons, you probably won't need an incubator.

Extremes certainly will kill eggs, but they do have a surprising range that they can successfully develop and hatch. I'm not sure what the low safe temp would be, but anything below the mid 60s would worry me. Anything above 82 long term (without much fluctuation where they can cool down nights or whatever) would worry me, 84 short term I think I've done before when using day/night fluctuations- but I really feel safer usin temps around 80 for the highest. Anything from low 70s to about 80 I feel is a "normal" and safe "warm" range. Anything from slightly below 65 to about 70 I would think of as "normal" and safe for a cool range. I'm sure others here may have opinion about the cool end, and if they go cooler than this I hope they jump in because I'd be curious about this.

 

[Chameleon Brothers]

Eggs

So she has finally laid her eggs. I was watching a video online and they had a large plastic bin with the eggs placed inside of another bin. I was going to put a small layer of water inside, but wasn't sure if an ice chest box might kill the eggs. Please let me know if my current set-up will kill my eggs.

 

[CarlC]

Anything from low 70s to about 80 I feel is a "normal" and safe "warm" range. Anything from slightly below 65 to about 70 I would think of as "normal" and safe for a cool range. I'm sure others here may have opinion about the cool end, and if they go cooler than this I hope they jump in because I'd be curious about this.

For species like veilds and panthers I think the temperatures Flux has been saying shouldn't pose any issue's. I don't know if I personally have ever let a clutch get as high as 80f but probably close with panthers and veilds.

For lateralis, campani and Tanzanian species I would try my best to never let the temp get above 73ish for extended periods. Campani I would have no problem going as low as the lower 60f's. For lateralis a couple of degree's warmer. Tanzanian species very low 70's the whole duration of incubation.

The lows for the Malagasy species would be used for two month's to break the diapause after the initial two or three month's in the low 70f's. The drop to the cooler temps and rise back up to the warmer temps would occur over a couple of weeks.

That's what has worked for me. I've never kept or hatched campani though so it is just what I would use as a starting point and adjust lower if needed.

Carl

 

[fluxlizard]

Yeah- I'm only talking veileds and panthers on those temps- sorry, I may have made an assumption about the species. Likewise- comments about diapause don't even apply for species like melleri, montiums, quads, etc. I don't know why but I was assumming we were talking about panthers or maybe veileds here.

Here is a photo of my egg setup when I sometimes have used the cabinet under my bathroom sink as the "incubator".

Really simple stuff, but a few things of interest here-

I don't like these containers particularly because they are "lunch" containers with divided bottoms under a single lid. I prefer a bit larger containers. These "tricked" me when I bought them because the division was under a cardboard wrapper, but I used them successfully anyway. Not a huge deal, but I usually prefer a little more room for substrate and air.

Your icebox should be fine. It just provides insulation so temperature swings will be slower which is fine. May even protect from extreme daily swings in temperature some. It will provide darkness, which is a good thing too.

I generally use good brands (rubbermaid) of air-tight food storage containers, as it greatly simplifies incubation. I put equal weights of water and substrate (perlite or vermiculite- I prefer perlite for viewing the eggs as they develop as it allows very subtle changes in the appearance of the egg shell to be accurately viewed compared to vermiculite). Once the eggs are set in the substrate, the containers are sealed and only opened during incubation if I want to take a better look at something or if an egg happens to go bad and I want to remove it. Otherwise, there is no need, and this keeps the substrate moisture stable so I don't have to monkey around with adding more water during the months of incubation.

 

[CarlC]

Yep it was about panthers and veilds but I wanted to throw that in because people (myself included) have a tendency to breeze along a thread until it gets to the important details.

Carl

 

[kdc5019]

For incubation purposes I just got a free old mini fridge. Gutted it and added flex watt heat tape on the inside hooked up to a temperature controller. And bam your in business. Relatively cheap to make. At least cheaper than buying an incubator.

 

[Chameleon Brothers]

Thanks

Thanks very good to know I was able to create a good enough set-up for the eggs Lastly, if some of the eggs are touching is that okay or should I separate them a bit more? I'd prefer not to touch them to be honest.

 

[fluxlizard]

If these are veileds, it is best to seperate the eggs by an inch or two according to thinking that is a couple decades old. Supposedly if they are too close, they will all try to hatch out at the same time (early hatching syndrome for some). Seperated they hatch out over a few days to a few weeks time.

I don't know if that thinking is current- i've always kept mine a bit seperate because of that and never tried to find out if it is correct and haven't heard talk of it since joining the forums.

The other thing is that if an egg goes bad, it can't hurt to have a little space between it and the next egg over (may not necessarily help either, but it sure can't hurt).