I'm pretty sure it's MBD

[GavTheCham]

New here. I was just reading up online about MBD in chameleons and came across a thread that suggested to start a new thread if this was the case (or something along those lines). Anyway, I wasn't going to, as I can imagine there are tons of threads discussing this topic, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

• Your Chameleon - Veiled chameleon named Gavin. I'm not sure his exact age, he was at the pet shop for about 2 to 3 months when we got him in July of this year. They were going to "put him in the back room" because they were getting new baby ones and he was too big to be in the same enclosure.
• Handling - He isn't handled very often, maybe twice a week.
• Feeding - He mostly eats meal worms, though hasn't been lately. Usually I put 15 in his bowl and they're all gone by the time I get home from work. He also eats crickets (about 7-10 in one feeding). It seems like that's all he has been wanting to eat lately. We've tried different worms, but he never even goes near them. The crickets are gutloaded with the Fluker's Orange cubes for a couple days before I feed them to Gavin.
• Supplements - I'll admit I haven't been dusting the crickets for a while because I thought the gut-loaded crickets would supply enough of what he needed, but I'm guessing that was a bad call. We used to try to sprinkle the mealworms with repti-calcium, but he wouldn't touch them for days until I'd put "clean" ones in there.
• Watering - My husband made a dripper so that is what we use for watering. It drips from the artificial leaves, to the live plant (some kind of Palm thing, I'm really not sure). And I have seen him drink. I mist him in the mornings before work for about a minute or so and after work for a little longer, until he runs off.
• Fecal Description - He has never been tested for parasites. And his fecal matter has always been and still seems normal.
• History - Not really much history. He has seemed pretty healthy and happy up until recently.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Cage is screened all around. The standard Repti-breeze we got at the store. I'm not sure the dimensions, but we are working on building him a bigger one.
• Lighting - We use reptisun 5.0 UVB, mini compact florescent. The heating bulb in an off brand- Great Choice, it lasts longer than the name brand ones so we've been using that a lot more. Lighting schedule from about 8 a.m. to 8 p.m.
• Temperature - Temps are usually 85-95°F in the basking area and in the 70s towards the floor. Lowest overnight temp is in the 60s. We have a thermometer we keep in there.
• Humidity - I have no idea as to the humidity, but I try to keep it wet in there. His new cage will have the better thermometers.
• Placement - The cage is in a corner by the bed. It isn't really a high traffic area since I don't spend much time in the room. It isn't near vents or fans, but it is near a window. Right now the cage is on top of a mini refrigerator. But that will change once he's got a taller cage.
• Location - I am located in southern Tennessee.

Current Problem - I've noticed that his joints look a little rounded, I guess would be the word. My husband kept saying he's always been that way, but I've spent enough time to know that he hasn't and it isn't normal. He hasn't really moved much from his one spot except to catch crickets, and even then it seems like he has a hard time getting around. I really know very little about chameleons, except what I have read online. I guess what I want to know is what steps do I take from here. I am starting to dust the crickets, but the stuff has no D3 and I'm not sure if that's what he needs? What amount should it be? Should I try different worms again?

I really hate to see him that way, not being able to tell if he's uncomfortable or in pain.

I have no problem (once I can convince my husband) taking him to the vet. I recently had to take my beardie in for a respiratory infection. She was a rescue, blind in one eye and surrendered by her previous owner of 4 years, so yeah, I couldn't leave her in that back room either.

Anyway, any kind of help/advice will be appreciated and my help convince my husband about making a visit to the vet if nothing else.

 

[Onemorecast]

You need to dust em, also uvb coil sucks...the fluorescent tubes are by far better. Meal worms as a staple diet arent the best. Hornworms are great, butter worms silk etc. he should be getting calcium w each feeding and calcium with d3 twice a month and a miltivit twice a month, the last two supplements not at same time and not used w cal dust, just them by thenselvea. Imo id bring him to a vet hed prob give you lighid cal to administor, also id ditch compact uvb and get the strip, covers wider area and all around is a begter uvb choice

 

[GavTheCham]

You need to dust em, also uvb coil sucks...the fluorescent tubes are by far better. Meal worms as a staple diet arent the best. Hornworms are great, butter worms silk etc. he should be getting calcium w each feeding and calcium with d3 twice a month and a miltivit twice a month, the last two supplements not at same time and not used w cal dust, just them by thenselvea. Imo id bring him to a vet hed prob give you lighid cal to administor, also id ditch compact uvb and get the strip, covers wider area and all around is a begter uvb choice

Thanks. I'll definitely look into the tube UVB bulb . What kind of multi-vitamins would you suggest? Brand? are these any good?

 

[Onemorecast]

I personally use rep-cal for all my supplements. Their multi is called herptivit, there cal w D3 is in pink container.

 

[GavTheCham]

I personally use reptical for all my supplements

Cool. Thanks, again .

 

[Lathis]

He does look like he has pretty bad MBD, especially the curvature of the front legs. For Veileds, you want to use calcium with no D3 at every feeding, then twice a month use a multivitamin with D3. Good gutloading is important, too. UVB bulbs don't last forever and need to be changed about every 6 months. The light will still work, but it is no longer producing UV radiation.

Keep a close eye on him over the next few months. If he falls while his bones are soft, he can break his legs. It's really terrible to see. If you can take him to a vet, they can inject some calcium to boost his recovery.

Here is the caresheet for Veileds. You can trust this information:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/

 

[Lathis]

A few other thoughts: Those Flukers orange cubes are worthless. Use a variety of fresh fruits and veggies to gutload your insects instead. He also needs a lot more vines and branches in his enclosure.

Wishing him the best of luck and a speedy recovery.

 

[kinyonga]

When a chameleon has MBD you need to first correct the imbalance of nutrients, etc and at the same time correct the husbandry so it won't return.

If the chameleon goes to a vet, the vet can give him injections of calcium until the bones and muscles and other systems in the chameleon are back to normal.

As for husbandry...you need to ensure that the chameleon has appropriate basking temperatures temperatures, that the insects are well fed and gutloaded, the UVB source is adequate and that the supplements are done properly.

For a male veiled the basking temperature can be in the mid to high 80'sF.
Appropriate temperatures allow for proper digestion and thus indirectly play a part in nutrient absorption.

I recommend the long linear Repti-sun 5.0 uvb light. It covers more area than the compacts do.

For feeding/gutloading the insects such as crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms I recommend using a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

For supplements its recommended that you dust the insects just before feeding them to the chameleon with a phosphorous-free calcium powder at most feedings to make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous found in most feeder insects.

Its recommended that you dust twice a month with a phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it and leaving the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues while D3 from exposure to UVB won't likely build up as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB when it wants to.

It's recommended that you dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. PrOformed sources of vitamin A cannot build up in the system and lead to health issues like the prEformed can so this leaves it up to you to decide whether the chameleon needs prEformed or not.

Good luck with your chameleon.

 

[GavTheCham]

A few other thoughts: Those Flukers orange cubes are worthless. Use a variety of fresh fruits and veggies to gutload your insects instead. He also needs a lot more vines and branches in his enclosure.

Wishing him the best of luck and a speedy recovery.

Thanks for your reply. I will definitely be taking him to the vet soon.

Also, do you know what kind of live plants would be good to have in there for him to get around him. And should I lower what branches he does have so that, in the case that he does fall, it'll lessen the impact?

 

[GavTheCham]

When a chameleon has MBD you need to first correct the imbalance of nutrients, etc and at the same time correct the husbandry so it won't return.

If the chameleon goes to a vet, the vet can give him injections of calcium until the bones and muscles and other systems in the chameleon are back to normal.

As for husbandry...you need to ensure that the chameleon has appropriate basking temperatures temperatures, that the insects are well fed and gutloaded, the UVB source is adequate and that the supplements are done properly.

For a male veiled the basking temperature can be in the mid to high 80'sF.
Appropriate temperatures allow for proper digestion and thus indirectly play a part in nutrient absorption.

I recommend the long linear Repti-sun 5.0 uvb light. It covers more area than the compacts do.

For feeding/gutloading the insects such as crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms I recommend using a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

For supplements its recommended that you dust the insects just before feeding them to the chameleon with a phosphorous-free calcium powder at most feedings to make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous found in most feeder insects.

Its recommended that you dust twice a month with a phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it and leaving the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues while D3 from exposure to UVB won't likely build up as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB when it wants to.

It's recommended that you dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. PrOformed sources of vitamin A cannot build up in the system and lead to health issues like the prEformed can so this leaves it up to you to decide whether the chameleon needs prEformed or not.

Good luck with your chameleon.

Thanks for the information. I'll look into this and make some changes.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for your reply. I will definitely be taking him to the vet soon.

Also, do you know what kind of live plants would be good to have in there for him to get around him. And should I lower what branches he does have so that, in the case that he does fall, it'll lessen the impact?

Hibiscus--the indoor tropical kind, not the hardy outdoor variety--is a great plant. They need high light, but I have a Arcadia quad system of lights from Light Your Reptiles--one UVB 12%, two daylight bulbs and one plant bulb. Or you can just buy a couple and rotate them through the cage. The plant you have (Sago Palm) is a very toxic plant. Veileds are notorious plant eaters, plus escaped crickets could eat plants. It would be terrible if you "gutloaded" your crickets with a toxic plant!

Yes, pad the floor with towels (even bunched paper towels) and fill in the whole cage with plants and vines so he can't fall.

 

[GavTheCham]

Hibiscus--the indoor tropical kind, not the hardy outdoor variety--is a great plant. They need high light, but I have a Arcadia quad system of lights from Light Your Reptiles--one UVB 12%, two daylight bulbs and one plant bulb. Or you can just buy a couple and rotate them through the cage. The plant you have (Sago Palm) is a very toxic plant. Veileds are notorious plant eaters, plus escaped crickets could eat plants. It would be terrible if you "gutloaded" your crickets with a toxic plant!

Yes, pad the floor with towels (even bunched paper towels) and fill in the whole cage with plants and vines so he can't fall.

Thanks, I didn't know that about the Sago Palm I had. I removed it last night, lowered the branches and placed a towel underneath. He was trying to eat crickets, but kept missing with his tongue. We tried hand feeding, but he just started hissing and trying to bite us instead of the crickets.

I'm trying to set up an appointment on Tuesday since my vet only works Tuesdays and Fridays in this clinic.

 

[LindsayG]

You can try cup feeding him. Just grab a small Tupperware bowl and throw in like 10 dusted crickets and place that in his branches if possible. That way he has a much easier time catching them.

 

[GavTheCham]

You can try cup feeding him. Just grab a small Tupperware bowl and throw in like 10 dusted crickets and place that in his branches if possible. That way he has a much easier time catching them.View attachment 147570

I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the idea. He ended up eating a few anyway