I think I found the minimum temps for a Veiled

[jajeanpierre]

Last night it was supposed to go down to 50F so I left Graeton, my Veiled outside for the night. Well, the weather forecast was wrong. At 3:30 in the morning, I woke up and checked the outside temps and it was 42F and dropping so I brought him inside.

It took forever for me to be able to get him to let go of the branch. My normal hissy bitey veiled did not--could not--move. He was stiff. I put him in a tote with a branch, but he was so stiff and cold he was not able to grab the branch, so I left him in a tangle propped up against the wall among branches. In the morning he had sorted himself out and was sleeping normally and back to his old crabby self hissing and lunging when I put him back in the outdoor cage.

So, my conclusion is that I think 42F is just a bit too cold to keep a veiled at night.

@Action Jackson, @jpowell86 mentioned you were pushing the limits with parsons. What have you found?

 

[Nursemaia]

I found the upper limits when my mom forgot to turn off the space heater when I wasn't home one night and I came home in the morning to 120 degrees in their room. My male and female veiled were unconscious but eventually recovered with cooling. The panther showed no ill effects.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I found the upper limits when my mom forgot to turn off the space heater when I wasn't home one night and I came home in the morning to 120 degrees in their room. My male and female veiled were unconscious but eventually recovered with cooling. The panther showed no ill effects.

That's really hot! Lucky chameleons don't have developed brains to get damaged from the heat! Apparently sheep will behave like sheep when 90% of their brains are destroyed by sheep scrapie.

 

[Action Jackson]

Last night it was supposed to go down to 50F so I left Graeton, my Veiled outside for the night. Well, the weather forecast was wrong. At 3:30 in the morning, I woke up and checked the outside temps and it was 42F and dropping so I brought him inside.

It took forever for me to be able to get him to let go of the branch. My normal hissy bitey veiled did not--could not--move. He was stiff. I put him in a tote with a branch, but he was so stiff and cold he was not able to grab the branch, so I left him in a tangle propped up against the wall among branches. In the morning he had sorted himself out and was sleeping normally and back to his old crabby self hissing and lunging when I put him back in the outdoor cage.

So, my conclusion is that I think 42F is just a bit too cold to keep a veiled at night.

@Action Jackson, @jpowell86 mentioned you were pushing the limits with parsons. What have you found?

I'm keeping one of my Adult Orange Eye Parson's outside this Winter. He's 6 1/2 years old and I've left him out before but never in temps below mid 40's. This year I plan on leaving him out all Winter. So far he has seen temperatures down to 36f at least two times that I've noticed and into the low 40's a bunch of times. I think freezing would be his threshold and at that time he might experience tissue damage, I dont know. I do know that at those low temperature they really shut down and will be barely hanging on to their branches or may even fall to the ground. Our daytime temps this week are in the high 50's-low 60's with cloud cover so he's not getting any direct sunlight to warm himself up but is looking good.

I have also been keeping Jacksonii and Johnstoni outside year round with no problem, in fact they do great with temps town into the 30's and 40's. The Jackson's is 7 years old this year and has lived outside the whole time.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'm keeping one of my Adult Orange Eye Parson's outside this Winter. He's 6 1/2 years old and I've left him out before but never in temps below mid 40's. This year I plan on leaving him out all Winter. So far he has seen temperatures down to 36f at least two times that I've noticed and into the low 40's a bunch of times. I think freezing would be his threshold and at that time he might experience tissue damage, I dont know. I do know that at those low temperature they really shut down and will be barely hanging on to their branches or may even fall to the ground. Our daytime temps this week are in the high 50's-low 60's with cloud cover so he's not getting any direct sunlight to warm himself up but is looking good.

I have also been keeping Jacksonii and Johnstoni outside year round with no problem, in fact they do great with temps town into the 30's and 40's. The Jackson's is 7 years old this year and has lived outside the whole time.

You are brave!

I think my quads and graciliors would do fine in the lower temps. My problem is the dry air. They dehydrate really quickly in dry air, even with lower temps.

 

[Angelwolf]

Wow. I can't believe any of you would be keeping them outside all winter. I know I sure as hexk wouldn't want to be out in that kind of temps for more than 5 min if I were a small lizard with no fat. I don't know where you live or what your winters are like, but that sounds too cold for my opinion. What keeps them from literally freezing solid? Is there a benefit to this that I am unaware of? Please don't take this as an attack. I was just kind of shocked at reading this. But I am interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[NHenn]

@jajeanpierre I had very similar thoughts when I was keeping some panthers outside during the cooler months. I found that 38F is really the cut off that I would allow them to be out at night. As long as they had warmth and were able to bask and bring their body temperatures up the next morning they were 100% normal.

@Angelwolf I can understand your immediate thoughts as this isn't something I would ever recommend to someone to do. As a breeder I feel it isn't only our duty to breed and raise chameleons but to also investigate and learn as much as we can from them. I feel we know so little about these animals and really only know one, may two ways to keep them in captivity that actually work but I'm sure there are thousands of other items we are missing. I know for a fact that the areas where the Jeweled Chameleon (F. campani) come from can and will see frost and even snow in their natural habitat in Madagascar. They have been found buried down in the leafs to keep their body temperatures above freezing. I feel this warm/cold cycle is necessary for some species to survive as without that their bodies having time to rest and go dormant they seem to speed towards death. It also affects their natural breeding cycle which can easily been seen in species like C. parsoni which need defined seasons in order to breed and reproduce. So, yes I would never say put your chameleon who has never been outside on a snowy night and see how they do but pushing the "known" limits to see what we are missing can be very informative and beneficial when it comes to learning more and more about chameleons.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Here in Florida we have at least 3 separate, well established populations of wild veiled chameleons in areas where temps get into the 30's at least once or twice a year for a day or two. My veiled is a direct descendent of one of these populations and I don't take him inside anymore now that he's no longer a tiny baby.

I'm also surprised to hear panthers held up to 120F better than the veileds did given the natural range of veiled chameleons extends into pretty arid desert regions in Yemen. My panthers outside handle the same temps and watering schedule as my veiled but my veiled never seems to be thirsty while the panthers drink twice a day at least. I don't think I would be worried about an adult veiled until temps hit low 30's and I don't think we could overheat one in Florida if kept outside reasonably (shade and water provided).

 

[jajeanpierre]

@NHenn , did you find your panthers were able to move at the cooler temps?

I saw a video somewhere of a particular montane species (can't remember the species) snapping up food at a waterfall where the narrator talked about it being maybe 42F. I think I remember snow/frost surrounding him. My memory of the video might not be accurate. I'm sure you've seen the video.

I didn't like that my veiled was unable to move. Last night I was a little late bringing him inside and he was completely stiff as if he were dead with rigor mortis. When laid on his side, he didn't move with his eyes sunk in and his legs stuck out. It was pathetic and funny at the same time.

Yesterday after his first dip to really cold temps, he was very active in the sun and ate well.

I agree with you that we need to play around with how they are kept, but the people pushing the limits need to be people who already are successful keeping the species, not your average chameleon keeper.

I know the natural habitat for veileds' sees frosts. At the same time, I also know veileds' habitat is vastly different today than it was 20,000 years ago when it was actually quite lush. There were lakes and human settlements in the middle of the Empty Quarter on the Arabian Peninsula. That's a far cry from the Arabian Peninsula today.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Here in Florida we have at least 3 separate, well established populations of wild veiled chameleons in areas where temps get into the 30's at least once or twice a year for a day or two. My veiled is a direct descendent of one of these populations and I don't take him inside anymore now that he's no longer a tiny baby.

I'm also surprised to hear panthers held up to 120F better than the veileds did given the natural range of veiled chameleons extends into pretty arid desert regions in Yemen. My panthers outside handle the same temps and watering schedule as my veiled but my veiled never seems to be thirsty while the panthers drink twice a day at least. I don't think I would be worried about an adult veiled until temps hit low 30's and I don't think we could overheat one in Florida if kept outside reasonably (shade and water provided).

I found my veiled--a big cranky PetSmart male--doesn't cope with heat very well at all. He blanches when the temps get into the 90s. His summer cage is 7' tall and about 6' in diameter surrounding a little tree set with big oak trees to the west so he doens't get afternoon sun. He basks in the morning and then dives for cover when it starts to get hot.

 

[ponders]

I am also keeping a few species out this winter in the same climate as Action Jackson. I have johnstoni, quadricornis, and deremensis outside. They are doing fine. I usually bring the deremensis in when temps get below 40, but this year he has been down to 38 several times. They seem to be more robust having the cooler temps as part of the seasonal cycle.

I just want to clarify that they have been out all year and have slowly acclimated to the cooler temps.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I am also keeping a few species out this winter in the same climate as Action Jackson. I have johnstoni, quadricornis, and deremensis outside. They are doing fine. I usually bring the deremensis in when temps get below 40, but this year he has been down to 38 several times. They seem to be more robust having the cooler temps as part of the seasonal cycle.

I just want to clarify that they have been out all year and have slowly acclimated to the cooler temps.

When they get that cold, are they able to move?

 

[jpowell86]

I have never kept veiled chameleons outside during the winter Janet, but I wouldn't be opposed to testing the limits with them. Getting so cold as to lose motor function is beyond cut off temps for me personally. I have kept many chameleons outside to play with the limits they can handle. I kept my multituberculata outside last year when it was getting down to the low 30's. I got a breeding that year too and they were like Tylene's, more robust and seemed much happier with their conditions. But, they were always able to move and maintain their motor functions.

I agree with Nick above as well. It is important to test limits(when you can and it makes sense) so that we expand our knowledge on each species and can tweak husbandry rules for the possible betterment of the animal. There are standards that we set for each species, but IMO, the majority of those standards are crap. I feel like every caresheet made for chameleons is basically a panther chameleon caresheet with a few tweaks. We have a long way to go IMO.

 

[Angelwolf]

Wow. This is some very interesting information. I know that this is how we learn more about husbandry techniques, but like I said, it was really a shock to me to read about. Meanwhile, on a side note, it is 27°F here, with lake effect snow and very strong winds, causing it to feel like about 6°F right now, and my power is off. The temperature in my house is starting to get uncomfortable, for me, anyway. I will have to observe Echo's behavior when he warms up again, and see if there is any change.

 

[NHenn]

@NHenn , did you find your panthers were able to move at the cooler temps?

I saw a video somewhere of a particular montane species (can't remember the species) snapping up food at a waterfall where the narrator talked about it being maybe 42F. I think I remember snow/frost surrounding him. My memory of the video might not be accurate. I'm sure you've seen the video.

I didn't like that my veiled was unable to move. Last night I was a little late bringing him inside and he was completely stiff as if he were dead with rigor mortis. When laid on his side, he didn't move with his eyes sunk in and his legs stuck out. It was pathetic and funny at the same time.

Yesterday after his first dip to really cold temps, he was very active in the sun and ate well.

I agree with you that we need to play around with how they are kept, but the people pushing the limits need to be people who already are successful keeping the species, not your average chameleon keeper.

I know the natural habitat for veileds' sees frosts. At the same time, I also know veileds' habitat is vastly different today than it was 20,000 years ago when it was actually quite lush. There were lakes and human settlements in the middle of the Empty Quarter on the Arabian Peninsula. That's a far cry from the Arabian Peninsula today.

They just slept through it all but once the sun comes up they started to move towards the top to bask. So not unable to move but their bodies where in a dormant state until it got warmer.

 

[AaronK]

Unfortunately I am in much too cold a climate to keep my Parsons outdoors year round, we typically see temps in the teens this time of year and snow accumulation of 4+ feet over night is not unheard of. Currently for winter my Parsons are exposed to daytime temps of 65º under the uvb bulbs with background temps at low 60'sº and nighttime temps in the low 50'sº. With these winter temps I have also noticed they seem more robust and as if they enjoy this cool down period. Their food consumption has dropped from feeding daily to feeding every 4-7 days. They certainly are less mobile at these temperatures, but they do make sure to move right under the mister head before it comes on and sit under it the full duration. I have yet to be able to locate their wrist watches as they always know when the mister will be coming on.

 

[Angelwolf]

Unfortunately I am in much too cold a climate to keep my Parsons outdoors year round, we typically see temps in the teens this time of year and snow accumulation of 4+ feet over night is not unheard of. Currently for winter my Parsons are exposed to daytime temps of 65º under the uvb bulbs with background temps at low 60'sº and nighttime temps in the low 50'sº. With these winter temps I have also noticed they seem more robust and as if they enjoy this cool down period. Their food consumption has dropped from feeding daily to feeding every 4-7 days. They certainly are less mobile at these temperatures, but they do make sure to move right under the mister head before it comes on and sit under it the full duration. I have yet to be able to locate their wrist watches as they always know when the mister will be coming on.

Wow! That's a lot of snow! Where do you live? I know it's not in the states!

 

[ponders]

When they get that cold, are they able to move?

As Nick said, they sleep thru it and then move slowly up to bask as it warms up.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

There is at least one commercial panther chameleon breeder in south Florida that keeps them outside year round.

I think the subtropical climate of south Florida really puts in within the window of good husbandry for most of the species we typically see people keep. Small tweaks here and there such as more or less shade and additional misting go a long way too.

 

[AaronK]

Wow! That's a lot of snow! Where do you live? I know it's not in the states!

It is actually in the states, Western New York, we get a lot of lake effect snow off Lake Erie.