Yes,and maybe thats the reason that O.P realize he has no financial help to saving the King,and the parents decide to get him another cham just to make him happy.
I NEED HELP ASAP
- Thread starter DaChameleonKing
- Start date
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
He never said how he did it. I asked and he didn't reply, I said he "Made the decision" Then the memorial thread in a couple of mins apart. And again had no money for the Vet.
He may have euthanize correctly, that is not the point the point is and you said "A vet wouldn't euthanize an animal that could get better" point is the vet didn't.
No vet I have ever seen said try this medicine for 10 days then puts the animal down the next day, that is just crazy talk.
Ahh yes one of the biggest problems in America but thats another convo
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KapitalJ
Avid Member
@alphakenc I know you saw it. but @jajeanpierre was asking where the link was...
Yes and Im just making sure u know I saw it Again since its hard to do telepathy on each other mind,thru this in writing
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I disagree with you. I don't supplement other than plain calcium and human-grade Vitamin A. I never give Vitamin D. Poor supplementing doesn't give kidney or liver failure. In fact, I think most supplements are useless at best and dangerous at the worst. If they aren't regulated for humans, what makes you think they have what they say they do in the bottle of reptile supplements?
Vitamin A deficiency gives problems with eyes and skin, but that animal looked like it had grown up in the wild and wouldn't be so Vitamin A deficient in a year as to be so sick from a lack Vitamin A. Vitamin A deficiency is a product of captivity, especially of generations of captive bred Vitamin A deficient mothers, and supplementing with Beta Carotenes which chameleons can't convert to usable Vitamin A.
A necropsy might or might not show anything.
If the OP was not coping with dealing with a sick animal he came to the wrong place for help. If he had been supported instead of criticized at the beginning perhaps you might have had the outcome you wanted. If you have ever dealt with an animal that you love and feel is struggling to survive it is very easy to want to just solve the problem by euthanasia. I can't imagine how hard it would be for a 13 year old kid to read some of the responses he got. Sometimes this group fails, absolutely fails at helping people and chameleons in need.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
"plain calcium and human-grade Vitamin A" He doesnt even do that is the problem here. Nor does he gutload his feeders, I see nothing wrong with your supplementing accompanied with Gutloading.
A lack of Vitamin A can 100% cause liver and kidney failure. I have already provided you resources about that, or you can ask ferrit who has said that on the forums a few times.
Op was supported, AFAIK I was the first one to get harsh and that was after he stated "I am putting the animal down" O-p has 4 threads about this, with some of the sites top people IMO helping him supporting him ect. He didn't listen, didn't care.
Again a very good Vet, seen the cham and said it was Vitamin A issues, we didnt see the cham, we saw some bad pics and heard some symptoms. Symptoms that line up with Vit A issues, so its pretty clear IMO that was the issue. The vet in question, has some pretty stellar things said about him around the forums and others. He is also Janns vet, who speaks wonderful about him.
Okay like Alpha said, King is gone it is time to move on.
OP, in the future please give a sick cham a chance. Chams get sick just like people, it takes longer than 1 day to recover. That was way to soon to give up. Extension already told you the night before dont expect instant changes, which all your threads show you wanted. Well that isnt life. You need to learn patience, not to be mean or harsh but I feel you are too young for the chams you are taking on. At your age you simply dont have the resources or time/patience ect to properly care for this animal.
I hope that you can prove me wrong and wish you all the best, I am sorry that king passed. I hope you can take the criticism we are giving you and use it to ensure a great life for your panther.
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jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I disagree.
I just euthanized a favorite chameleon yesterday. She was at the vet's Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. Euthanasia wasn't on the vet's mind Sunday and nothing had really changed by Monday. No, I didn't have the backbone to do it myself although I am quite capable of slaughtering and processing my own excess roosters. I wish I had--it would have been kinder and quicker. Euthanasia of a reptile, or a horse for that matter, by a vet is not as humane as it should be.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Well see your situation is different, you went ot the vet 4 times. Over a week before deciding to euthanize. That is a big difference then 1 day, if he had waited a week and still seen no improvement only things getting worse, then it would be different.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I wish I had never taken her to the vet and euthanized her myself or euthanized on the first visit. She suffered horribly all the while under the best vet care.
MelissaB
Avid Member
I only think it fair to mention that the other keepers that suffered the losses also got the worst condition animals out of that import. I remember that very well.
ChamomilleCame
Avid Member
I just don't understand why you couldn't give the poor guy to someone else. Anyone on the forums, or hell, maybe even Craigslist if you live in a populated area.
For all it's worth, when I was around your age (14), I acquired my first cham. A young jackson just like yours. I'll admit, his husbandry was absolute garbage when I got him. The difference between me and you is that I actually admitted to doing things incorrectly and actually took and used the advice that was given to me from all the wonderful people on this forum. Search up all the old threads that I made and you'll see what I'm talking about (yikes...).
I know you're young, but you should really, really ask your parents for any husbandry help. If it weren't for my father, my chameleons I had in the past would not have had a sick, huge enclosure. I started to understand how important it was to have at least one person in the family semi-invested in the animal's health.
I get it, OP. You love chameleons. But it gets to a point where you really must evaluate what you did wrong way before purchasing another one. It's irresponsible to just keep them coming for your own satisfaction. This is why there are so many "activists" against the reptile trade! The point of having an exotic animal is to provide it with the same or better care than it living in the wild.
I really do wish you the best with your panther. Hope it doesn't end up euthanized (I'm saying that in the kindest way possible).
For all it's worth, when I was around your age (14), I acquired my first cham. A young jackson just like yours. I'll admit, his husbandry was absolute garbage when I got him. The difference between me and you is that I actually admitted to doing things incorrectly and actually took and used the advice that was given to me from all the wonderful people on this forum. Search up all the old threads that I made and you'll see what I'm talking about (yikes...).
I know you're young, but you should really, really ask your parents for any husbandry help. If it weren't for my father, my chameleons I had in the past would not have had a sick, huge enclosure. I started to understand how important it was to have at least one person in the family semi-invested in the animal's health.
I get it, OP. You love chameleons. But it gets to a point where you really must evaluate what you did wrong way before purchasing another one. It's irresponsible to just keep them coming for your own satisfaction. This is why there are so many "activists" against the reptile trade! The point of having an exotic animal is to provide it with the same or better care than it living in the wild.
I really do wish you the best with your panther. Hope it doesn't end up euthanized (I'm saying that in the kindest way possible).
jcarlsen
Chameleon Enthusiast
I won't repeat what's already been said by the more experienced members on here, but this thread has devolved into an argument that goes beyond the cham. Yes, OP, it sucks to be wrong and to be told you're doing it wrong, but losing your guy is unfortunately a way to learn, a way in which we all try to avoid learning, but a learning experience nonetheless.
You're getting a new panther chameleon. Do be patient with it and do everything you can to care for it according to the wealth of information on here and elsewhere. If you find you're getting into too many back and forth tiffs with members on here, I'd at least implore you to ask the Kammers for advice whenever any kind of issue arises. They are experts at what they do and well respected by everyone here.
The one piece of advice I can offer you, based on the bits and pieces I've scanned from this thread is to just stay very organized and start keeping a chart or journal of what you feed your cham, how much it eats, what it weighs, if it poops, what you're supplementing it with. This will keep you diligent in tracking it's growth and overall health. It's something that I did not do very well at first, but I've got a spreadsheet that I tend to daily for my guy, especially since he'd come down with parasites and I had to medicate him.
Best of luck with your new panther, ask advice on here, or of the Kammers and be open to that advice.
You're getting a new panther chameleon. Do be patient with it and do everything you can to care for it according to the wealth of information on here and elsewhere. If you find you're getting into too many back and forth tiffs with members on here, I'd at least implore you to ask the Kammers for advice whenever any kind of issue arises. They are experts at what they do and well respected by everyone here.
The one piece of advice I can offer you, based on the bits and pieces I've scanned from this thread is to just stay very organized and start keeping a chart or journal of what you feed your cham, how much it eats, what it weighs, if it poops, what you're supplementing it with. This will keep you diligent in tracking it's growth and overall health. It's something that I did not do very well at first, but I've got a spreadsheet that I tend to daily for my guy, especially since he'd come down with parasites and I had to medicate him.
Best of luck with your new panther, ask advice on here, or of the Kammers and be open to that advice.
DaChameleonKing
Avid Member
Please stop fighting about what I did wrong. I have talked to the owners of Kammerflage kreations sent them pictures and stuff about King. They said he looks old and I agree I just think he is old and King's time has come. I have learned a lesson so lets move on.
Nicholasdeaan
Avid Member
This isn't all to accurate. I would give my Jacksons 4 minutes in the morning, 10 minute in t afternoon, and 4 minutes in the evening. He has urates white as can be. Being that they should be kept cooler, (you don't have to mist as often for humidity) and dehydration shouldn't occur if they're getting 3 times daily minimum to drink. One ten minute session gives them time to drink their little hearts out. And really, unless you've worked with the species, shooting off only what you've gained for knowledge from reading, isn't the solution for cases like these. Have you ever owned a Jackson's or worked with one? Any Montane species at all? You're new to keeping correct? I'm not putting you down for being new by no means. I just understand where all this comes from? While I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions, you go off on people here who are SO much more experienced than you. @jajeanpierre isn't a fool and I highly advice you change your attitude towards her and others. Chances are you'll need help someday. The people who come on here acting like "know-it-alls" are usually the ones left here with no help given when needed. Now, I'm not saying you act like one. I'm just saying that's how it is.
I don't really think he looked that old. There's a million things that could have been wrong. It really is hard to say. I wish you the best of luck with your new chameleon, and please, don't hesitate to ask a million questions on here. Better to be safe than sorry.
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jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
What makes you so sure of that? They didn't get all the best but they didn't get all the worst I can guarantee you that. That whole shipment was a mess.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Okay so I am wrong about the water. That 60 secs of mist isn't enough every 3 hours (which is what I was saying). However you yourself just said "4 minutes in the morning, 10 minute in t afternoon, and 4 minutes in the evening." So another words, his 60 secs 3 times a day is not enough. Which is exactly what I said, that isn't enough.
So you, who has more experience mist more. But me saying that isnt enough is wrong? the 10 mins every 3 hours was an exaggeration, I dont think he really needs misted 10 mins every 3 hours. I was saying that 60 secs is not nearly enough, that will not maintain the humidity needed.
Jean didn't say that was long enough either, she said it could be, she said "that may be enough, Chris Anderson uses barely any water for his glass terrariums" And if this cham was in glass, from what I have read from Chris, that would likely be enough or more than enough. However as I have an enclosure very similar to OPs, I know 2 mins will not maintain the humidity needed.
As a matter of fact look at the thread, as there is other way more experienced members than me that are agreeing with the things I have said.
Okay now to the stuff with Jean, well we did have it out a bit. About Vitamin A. Here is the thing I still and will always stand by what I said. Vitamin A deficiency can and does cause liver and kidney failure. That really isn't up for debate by keepers, that is a debate for Vets which I am not and neither is she. I can provide links from vets all day of vets stating that. That is science not opinion. However maybe she knows a vet that says differently. that is fine, she chooses to follow that vets logic behind it. I choose to follow ferrits and the numerous study's done on it. Google it and see how many links tell you that.
A Vit A deficiency causing that issue is also not only a cham problem. That is a reptile wide problem, and while yes I am new to chameleons I am not new to reptiles.
At the end of the thread, his husbandry may not have killed this cham. I will admit its possible it was something else entirely. However the poor husbandry surely did not help, not at all do you disagree? Or are we suppose to just coddle him and say this wasn't your fault change nothing? Look at the members of the thread, and there comments. And realize that most of the people in this thread are stating the same thing as me, they are just not as outspoken/have more tact than I.
There is a prime example, Old Cham keeper, he has more experience than likely any one in this entire thread. Funny he said the same exact stuff I did, and even in the same tone. Yet to him you say nothing, but jump at me.
I am sorry if I offend you or her or anyone else aside from OP. I see what this entire thread as animal abuse. It 100% angers me, and when that happens I will speak my truthful mind.
I know you do not like me, and I am sorry for that, maybe you should just place me on your block list, I hope you have a great day.
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jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think you missed the part where I regretted ever going to the vet and wished I had just dispatched her myself.
Are you serious? I would feed all my chameleons to my chickens before I would ever just give one away on Craig's list. I am not very impressed with any "rescue," either. Many are glorified hoarders. Or sellers. Or con artists. You really have no business second guessing his decision.
I reread the beginning of the thread and euthanizing a chameleon that is too weak to hold onto a branch sounds like a pretty reasonable decision to me.
I looked at the pictures, too. He was acquired as an adult. I suspect he was an adult wild caught based on how straight his horns were, which means he grew up in the wild and doesn't have a very high need for calcium as an adult. His supplementing was reasonable. The gutloading of the crickets wasn't so awful it would hurt a full grown adult male that grew up in the wild. It certainly didn't make him so weak he was falling and laying on the floor of the cage.
Who knows, he might have been very old. You just don't know, but what you should know is that euthanizing a chameleon that is too weak to hold onto branches is a very reasonable decision. I don't think many on this list fully understand that "trying" is often cruel to the animal, costs a lot of money and the chameleon is just as dead in the end.
