I know this is a chameleon forum but,..

[CHIMP]

Pores are not on the underside of the hind legs like we’d normally look for (if I’m not mistaken). If I remember correctly, they are on the belly and look like a zipper for males but these may be too small to see that.

I did notice something like that on the belly of a few of them. I know my pics are blurry and my thumb is in the way. I will take a closer look at that tonight after work

 

[CHIMP]

One method of sexing very young varanids utilizes a flashlight shined through the posterior side to better see the internal structures.

It works very well on bearded dragons (agamidae) so it may work on others in that family as well.
Couldn't hurt to try.
Hemipenal Transillumination as a Sexing Technique in Varanids

I will try that as well. I did notice when looking at them online they compared them alot to bearded dragons.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I am not trying to compare anything. Just chatting. And yes cats and dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years but when people do not take proper care. They can cause problems in the local environment. So when it comes to invasive species, and laws regarding what we can and can not have, they are no different.

I disagree. "When people do not take proper care" is an errant exception. Invasive species devouring everything they can is the norm.

My point was that there are many other factors regarding invasives. Not just the pet trade. Or strictly speaking anything other than a cat or dog.

Cats & dogs are not invasive species except in extremely rare cases of dog packs or feral cats, neither of which have decimated any local (North America) ecosystems I'm aware of. Other factors? By far, most invasive species are introduced by man, and the pythons, tegus, and iguanas didn't hitch rides on flotsam; they originated as pets that escaped or were intentionally released.

 

[MissSkittles]

Perhaps if humanity hadn’t wiped out all of the large natural predators....

 

[CHIMP]

I disagree. "When people do not take proper care" is an errant exception. Invasive species devouring everything they can is the norm.


Cats & dogs are not invasive species except in extremely rare cases of dog packs or feral cats, neither of which have decimated any local (North America) ecosystems I'm aware of. Other factors? By far, most invasive species are introduced by man, and the pythons, tegus, and iguanas didn't hitch rides on flotsam; they originated as pets that escaped or were intentionally released.

I agree to some extent. But once established it is too late to put laws in effect to prevent people from owning. And i think putting laws in effect at that point only makes it worse. Because people are not allowed to go out a catch them or are required to hold a licence to do so. So if you look at the chameleon trade people where and still are illegally ranching in the wild. But once other people accross the nation started realizing this they where comming down and catching them. Now unless you know an area good luck finding them. Showing that the pet trade can actually help remove them. Not every case is the same and you really do not want amatures hunting bermese in the wild. Further more there are many species that while adapting to new environments can cause alot of harm. But sometimes they fit right in and the ecology only suffered for a shot period of time before going back to normal with the exception of a new addition to the environment. Hence why I mentioned cats and dogs. Not to discriminate but to show how sometimes it does work out. A prime example i can think of is peacock bass in south florida. The coexist with the large mouths and increase fisheries. Sure they feed on native species but natives also feed on them.

 

[CHIMP]

I know this conversation is indeed controversial. But I feel it is a conversation that needs to be had in the pet trade. What happens when the make owning chameleons illegal. That may never happen. But we to be a united front to protect out right to care for them. The other reason I mention cats and dogs. In south florida they want to take the "dangerous breeds" away from us. My pit was a loving dog. Kept with cats and never attacked anything. Rip kain

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Perhaps if humanity hadn’t wiped out all of the large natural predators....

IDK if I'd be OK with that or not. Guess it depends. Where I live, rattlesnakes used to be common & native. They're gone today, as are the black bears, most coyotes, and some big cats. Eastern cougars have been declared extinct, but TBH, IDK if they lived here or not. So gone are the beaver, moose, and some others (now dear we got up the yin-yang...). Coyotes have been seen (we've seen sign on our property, but not recently) and every few years or so, a wandering bear makes the local news. We already keep garbage cans secured against raccoons, possum, skunk, & fox.

In wild areas though, like national parks & forests... sure.

 

[CHIMP]

Humans are definaltey the main factor regardless of the reason.

 

[CHIMP]

IDK if I'd be OK with that or not. Guess it depends. Where I live, rattlesnakes used to be common & native. They're gone today, as are the black bears, most coyotes, and some big cats. Eastern cougars have been declared extinct, but TBH, IDK if they lived here or not. So gone are the beaver, moose, and some others (now dear we got up the yin-yang...). Coyotes have been seen (we've seen sign on our property, but not recently) and every few years or so, a wandering bear makes the local news. We already keep garbage cans secured against raccoons, possum, skunk, & fox.

In wild areas though, like national parks & forests... sure.

I get coyote, and Bob cats on my yard all the time. We shoot the coyote. I have seen one panther that roams the area, and a few bears but I do not see bears often. Racoons are everywhere. We just do what we can to keep them out of the trash.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I agree to some extent. But once established it is too late to put laws in effect to prevent people from owning. And i think putting laws in effect at that point only makes it worse. Because people are not allowed to go out a catch them or are required to hold a licence to do so.
....
Not every case is the same and you really do not want amatures hunting bermese in the wild.

You can't have it both ways. Florida has python bounties & events. They're not fooling themselves that they can solve the problem; they're more focused on control (from the vids I've seen).

Hence why I mentioned cats and dogs. Not to discriminate but to show how sometimes it does work out.

You might have an argument for cats, as they are not native to the US, but TMK they haven't wiped out or replaced any species either. OTOH, dogs were living with Native peoples here for 10,000 years. Not invasive.

 

[MissSkittles]

You might have an argument for cats, as they are not native to the US, but TMK they haven't wiped out or replaced any species either. OTOH, dogs were living with Native peoples here for 10,000 years. Not invasive.

I adore my kitty cats but...https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/cats-responsible-for-driving-many-species-to-extinction/

 

[CHIMP]

You can't have it both ways. Florida has python bounties & events. They're not fooling themselves that they can solve the problem; they're more focused on control (from the vids I've seen).


You might have an argument for cats, as they are not native to the US, but TMK they haven't wiped out or replaced any species either. OTOH, dogs were living with Native peoples here for 10,000 years. Not invasive.

I do not have all the answers. I am just speculating on what I do know. I am not following what you mean by both ways. I just think there are better ways that just telling people what they can and can not keep. Maybe they have figured it out and this is the best way, I just do not feel that is right. As for the dogs here is the U.S. you might be right but in other places that has not been the case. Either way when a neighbors dogs come in my yard growling at me, and killing the animals I care for. Or preventing me from walking my dog on a leash, or going for a jog. To me they are invasive. I have no problems calling animal control on those people.
In the end it is not the animal but the people. So just because Larry down the road can not take proper precautions. Does that mean I should not be allowed to own a dog either? Yes I know a large snake is different than a dog. But should that really make that much of a difference? Both can be aggressive or not. If that is the case then where does it end.

P.s. I know you really did not want to have this conversation but I appreciate you having it with me anyway. I can see you care.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I adore my kitty cats but...https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/cats-responsible-for-driving-many-species-to-extinction/

I was speaking of the US, which is where we were talking about invasive species like the Burmese pythons. That article doesn't mention any species decimated by cats or dogs here.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I just think there are better ways that just telling people what they can and can not keep. Maybe they have figured it out and this is the best way, I just do not feel that is right.

That's an oversimplification. There isn't some cabal of people that sit around arbitrarily deciding which invasive species should be banned by law. There's data and science to back up the decisions, whether everyone agrees or not. Not every law is perfect, but it's not that cut & dried.

As for the dogs here is the U.S. you might be right but in other places that has not been the case.

I haven't been talking about the rest of the world; You began this discussion with reference to Burmese pythons & iguanas in FL. The US is generally where I've been talking about.

Either way when a neighbors dogs come in my yard growling at me, and killing the animals I care for. Or preventing me from walking my dog on a leash, or going for a jog. To me they are invasive. I have no problems calling animal control on those people.

I support that; I've had to call animal control myself on rare occasions. (We called them this morning because of a dead fawn left roadside in front of our house.) Leash laws are in effect in every locale in the US. You're talking about a small minority of scofflaws—not the vast majority of responsible dog owners. If the problem where you are is more serious than that, then the problem is not with the dogs, but with their owners and local government.

In the end it is not the animal but the people. So just because Larry down the road can not take proper precautions. Does that mean I should not be allowed to own a dog either? Yes I know a large snake is different than a dog. But should that really make that much of a difference? Both can be aggressive or not. If that is the case then where does it end.

With dogs, I agree it is the owners. Dogs can be trained or left untrained (which could be argued is a form of abuse). TMK, large snakes cannot be trained to stay on their property, come when called, stay when told, not to attack prey, etc.

P.s. I know you really did not want to have this conversation but I appreciate you having it with me anyway. I can see you care.

There's been some leeway, as you started this thread. Yes I care, but I strongly disagree that domesticated and exotic pets can or should be compared in these contexts. I'm about talked out, and it's clear neither of us is going to sway the other.

 

[CHIMP]

Your right we are not going to sway in either direction. I respect your opinion in the matter and appreciate the conversation anyway. I am glad that two people in the community can have a civilized conversation without being disrespectful. I do feel that your misunderstanding alot of what I am saying and maybe that is because I am not relaying it properly. We can end it here. Back to the agamas. I looked at them under a light. I do not see enough to clearing say what is what. Maybe I am doing it wrong too. They other guy mentioned a zipper shape on the belly. I notice something to that but without experience I am not confident in it. I have looked at the addults and noticed some differences in body structure and I think i may be able to sex them from that. It won't be perfected but I will have a idea. I noticeD the males are more slender and I notice some differences in the juvies.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Back to the agamas. I looked at them under a light. I do not see enough to clearing say what is what. Maybe I am doing it wrong too.

It was just a suggestion, and only one article, albeit one of the more scholarly ones.
You may find another that explains it differently here.
sexing reptiles via flashlight

They other guy mentioned a zipper shape on the belly. I notice something to that but without experience I am not confident in it. I have looked at the addults and noticed some differences in body structure and I think i may be able to sex them from that. It won't be perfected but I will have a idea. I noticeD the males are more slender and I notice some differences in the juvies.

I'm not personally familiar with that method(?) or the species.
Chase or someone else may have some other ideas.

sexing red headed agamas
sexing young red headed agamas
(I haven't read any of these)

 

[CHIMP]

That is really impressive. The picture definitely define it well. I think my little ones you could use this technique.

It was just a suggestion, and only one article, albeit one of the more scholarly ones.
You may find another that explains it differently here.
sexing reptiles via flashlight


I'm not personally familiar with that method(?) or the species.
Chase or someone else may have some other ideas.

sexing red headed agamas
sexing young red headed agamas
(I haven't read any of these)

That us really impressive. I will have to read more into that and experiment with some of my other lizards just to make sure I know what I am doing.

 

[MissSkittles]

No idea how many of the younger agamas you have, but is it possible that they are all the same gender and that’s why you aren’t seeing any differences between them. I recall reading that incubation temps determine gender. Just a thought.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I recall reading that incubation temps determine gender. Just a thought.

I've read/heard/watched the same, but I can never remember which species/ genera /families it applies to...

 

[CHIMP]

No idea how many of the younger agamas you have, but is it possible that they are all the same gender and that’s why you aren’t seeing any differences between them. I recall reading that incubation temps determine gender. Just a thought.

That is a highly probable. I tried catching from different colonies to reduce the chances of them all being the same sex. But when it comes to the adults I noticed differences in escape patterns as well. The males would take off on a full on 40yrd dash. The females would run to the nearest tree and hid behind it. I caught all my big females the same way as my juvies. It is likely I have all females.