How to improve the photo contest

[OldChamKeeper]

What about letting us do the sifting for you! Tournament style, just like the video contest. Open the entries, separate them into brackets, and then let the voting begin. The winner from each bracket (Let's say there are 10 entries per bracket, and in any given month, you get 40 photos) then moves on to the next round of voting. Then, we all can vote and ultimately choose 1 of 4, maybe 5, photos.

Won't work. Impartiality becomes a perception issue. People who like to enter the contest even if only occasionally just can't be part of the process. If people don't have faith in the system they don't participate. Since this thing has been a fixture of this site for a decade I'd hate to see it die off.

Brackets become an issue too. Brad can only hand out one prize and so a "Best overall" photo would still be needed. Adding more brackets actually adds more work in the form of having to sift through all of the photos again like we do now.

Brad needs a way to simplify the system, not add more photos to it.

It would actually be easiest if people read the rules, only submitted one entry, and made sure it was a calendar worthy candidate. Limiting people who already win 1st place to once a year would increase participation and diversity. Any attempt to limit a given month's entries to one species wouldn't work. Themes are fine.

 

[jamest0o0]

Besides people reading the rules-because that won't happen. I think if a notification is possible, that'll be the best and probably only way to simplify things while keeping everyone still eligible.

 

[Decadancin]

I had recommended a pop-up to ask if the member would like to replace their current entry with the new one as an alert to the rule. This would only allow one entry per member and they would have to pick which one they wanted. It would take some software updates, but with the new platform if shouldn't be too tough.
I don't think it would help too much with the elimination because only the first entry is judged.

 

[ChamLB]

I know themes by species is unworkable but seasonal or holiday related themes might make the narrowing down process clearer. It could be inspiring.

 

[Brad]

Thank you everyone for the great feedback and suggestions. I'm going to comment on a few elements now and will add more thoughts over the weekend.

Themes
Themes are always an option and something we have done in the past to try and increase participation. It can be fun to mix things up occasionally and themes are a great way to do that. I'm very open to doing more themes in the future, but I don't think they will help to reduce the time needed to manage the contest every month.

Multiple Entries
In most cases I take the first entry and ignore the rest, so this usually does not take much additional time. However, it would be a nice improvement to the contest and should not be too difficult to implement. It would also be nice to check the width and height of entries during the upload process.

Calendar Emphasis
I agree with everyone. It's a great idea to remind or inform people that we're looking for photos to use in a future calendar. I'll find some ways to make that more clear.

Winner Limit
A couple people suggested limiting members to one 1st place win per year. Currently, 1st place winners are forced to sit out the following month. One per year is probably more strict than I would like to see, but I'm open to changes. I would rather see the bar raised by people gaining a better understanding of the type of photos we're after.

 

[Brad]

I think it is important to quickly review what makes the contest so time consuming to maintain. There are a lot of contributing factors, but the most significant by far (big O) is the need to reduce the original entry count to a more manageable number for voters. We call that the reduction phase. While it may not be immediately apparent, the reduction phase is crucial to the long term success of the contest. Most members lack the time needed to properly review more than a handful of photos before voting. Asking everyone to fairly evaluate and compare 50-100 photos is not feasible. It is also our experience that voter turnout and related discussions increase when voters only have a few options to choose from. It has always been a struggle to find a balance between that and the desire to have as many members participate as possible.

We will probably be most productive by focusing our discussions here on how best to improve the reduction phase. Many ideas have been considered over the past few years and a lot of great suggestions were made previously in this thread. When I consider all these ideas they tend to fall into two different categories. The first focuses on a single group of entries that are reduced until only a certain number remains for voting. That's the kind of system we have now. I think this system is probably the easiest and least confusing for new members, but because it leaves all the reduction work to site staff it can be very time consuming. One suggestion we received includes finding additional people to help with the reduction phase. That has a lot of potential, but the people would need to be both impartial and experienced at judging photography. Trying to find and organize volunteers for this could become a time sink itself and we can't afford to hire people on a regular basis. Another suggestion we received is to use and make public a photography grading system similar to what is used in horticulture competitions. I think that is a great idea that could improve the situation in several ways, but alone it's probably not a solution.

The second group of suggestions revolve around the idea of the community taking a more active role in the reduction phase. This usually includes grouping entries into brackets where the winner(s) of each bracket compete in a final vote. With some clever automation this definitely has the potential to reduce the time needed to maintain the contests, but at the same time it greatly complicates the process for voters. Each month we would have a round of multiple bracket polls followed by a final vote. That's a lot of voting on a regular basis. I'm not convinced that we can pull that off and maintain participation in each poll every month. The polls would also only last for about a week instead of the current two weeks. I think the contests would be most exciting if the final vote only included 3-5 photos, and a bracket system is a good way to achieve that, but I'm not convinced that the potential benefits of a bracket system outweigh the increased complications. They have worked in the past for special circumstances, but it might be too much on a regular basis.

So this is where I am at the moment. I have identified two different paths and continue exploring each in order to figure out the best direction to take. I will continue to think about this and will add more thoughts in a couple days. I would like to see improvements, or perhaps even a new system, implemented for the August contest. All feedback and suggestions are welcome.

 

[Brad]

I'll try to keep this post shorter than my last
I'm leaning towards the path that improves the current system instead of creating something new based on brackets. Unless a new idea or suggestion is presented within the next few days I suspect that is the direction we will go. My main concern with using brackets on a regular basis is the lack of time available to properly market or advertise multiple polls. I think brackets can be great in certain circumstances, but on a regular monthly basis they may be too much.

 

[EveryGreen]

maybe we could have different themes like sports, nature and holidays

we could also have different categories for species like a panther category, parson category and a jackson category

i would have to agree. its very hard to win with a veiled. mostly these months are panthers

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

@Brad I have to agree the prospect of a bracket system leaves a lot of responsibility on the general membership. I don't know if that's a viable option long term.

What if the reduction phase had its own moderator. Someone whose sole responsibility was to mill through the entries every month. Reduce the entry window to one previously agreed upon day after the previous winner is announced, find a way to limit people to one entry and have the Reducer admin get to work. That leaves the rest of the contest work to you and reducing the entry window makes it so people who are more serious about the photos get in but the willy-nilly entries don't so much.

If someone takes a great photo they want to enter sometime throughout that month it just has to wait until next month. If there is a specific Entry Day, say the first Saturday of every month, the people who are less serious about their entries won't get them in, more time allotted to reduce at a leisurely pace and more time for voting on a smaller number of photos. Winners can even be announced by the last day of the month instead of the first week of the following month.

Essentially the people who don't take it seriously enough to read the rules before entering are getting their photos eliminated before voting anyway. This eliminates them from entering to some extent.

 

[jamest0o0]

I don't think reducing the entry window will reduce the amount of photos that are not suitable. That would probably cut the photos down by a lot, but I think it'd be pretty equal between good and bad ones. Life is too unpredictable. I don't think it'd be fair for some people who may not have the chance to enter a photo 1 day out of the month. I personally would not like to wait a month or more down the road to submit a picture I like.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I don't think reducing the entry window will reduce the amount of photos that are not suitable. That would probably cut the photos down by a lot, but I think it'd be pretty equal between good and bad ones. Life is too unpredictable. I don't think it'd be fair for some people who may not have the chance to enter a photo 1 day out of the month. I personally would not like to wait a month or more down the road to submit a picture I like.

If you took the picture and said 'man this could win the photo contest' you would remember to enter it. Imagine that versus 'I took a hundred cute pictures of my chameleon today, I should enter in the photo contest'.

The photos that are good enough to win took enough effort that people would hold them a few weeks to enter them.

 

[inkdguy35]

i would have to agree. its very hard to win with a veiled. mostly these months are panthers

it's not hard to win/compete with any species. if the photograph is good, technically speaking, then any species of cham has a good a chance as the other. In fact if I remember correctly the last, at least two, winners were not Panthers and were not the same species. I believe it's the quality of photo not what your taking the photo of.

 

[jamest0o0]

it's not hard to win/compete with any species. if the photograph is good, technically speaking, then any species of cham has a good a chance as the other. In fact if I remember correctly the last, at least two, winners were not Panthers and were not the same species. I believe it's the quality of photo not what your taking the photo of.

This just isn't true, veileds do not have the same chance as others. The photograph definitely matters I agree with that, and sure a lot of us can appreciate a beautiful veiled just as much as something else. But the vast majority are going to prefer the less common and more unique looking species if everything else is equal. It's human nature. Not much can be done about this though without making the contest more difficult.

 

[jamest0o0]

If you took the picture and said 'man this could win the photo contest' you would remember to enter it. Imagine that versus 'I took a hundred cute pictures of my chameleon today, I should enter in the photo contest'.

The photos that are good enough to win took enough effort that people would hold them a few weeks to enter them.

Yeah obviously they would hold them, but does that mean they should? I'd wait if I had to in that case, but I definitely wouldn't be happy if the 1-day window was a day I had to work without internet connection. Especially if it was the same day every month, a lot of people might work every Saturday or whatever. I feel like this would just complicate things for everyone in the contest rather than cut down bad photos. Now I like the idea of maybe shortening it a little instead of being a couple weeks long.

 

[JacksJill]

I don't have a problem with a shorter entry window but it should be at least a week. Then we could have a longer voting phase.

Ps I'm pretty sure that some veiled pictures won last year. Check the archive. August 2016.

 

[Tattersb]

it's not hard to win/compete with any species. if the photograph is good, technically speaking, then any species of cham has a good a chance as the other. In fact if I remember correctly the last, at least two, winners were not Panthers and were not the same species. I believe it's the quality of photo not what your taking the photo of.

You are right, I know at least the last three were not.

 

[Angelwolf]

I'll try to keep this post shorter than my last
I'm leaning towards the path that improves the current system instead of creating something new based on brackets. Unless a new idea or suggestion is presented within the next few days I suspect that is the direction we will go. My main concern with using brackets on a regular basis is the lack of time available to properly market or advertise multiple polls. I think brackets can be great in certain circumstances, but on a regular monthly basis they may be too much.

Well, I'm the one who originally suggested a bracket system (or tournament, if you will). If it can be automated, that should lessen the amount of time over all. Take the 1st submission from the member (good or not), and put that into the bracket. 5-10 photos per bracket, up to 3 preliminary brackets, should cover the majority of submissions.. (I think.) Make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to all, that these are being chosen for a calendar. People SHOULD have that in mind when submitting photos. The "poor photos" won't make it passed the first bracket of voting, anyway.

When it comes to the amount of time that the voting is open for, I personally, vote as soon as it opens up. Then I sit there for the next 2 weeks and wait anxiously to see who is going to win. I would love to see more interaction from it anyway. When you did the video contest, it was very engaging to keep checking back to see who won next. Once you choose a picture, your choice is generally made. So why drag it out for 2 weeks of voting? If you form a bracket system, you should see more site participation, in the immediate future, as well as long term. Those folks who don't get on often will still be able to vote, knowing that the final voting is at the end of the month. Perhaps that will spur them to come back a little more often, anyway.

I know I get very bored with the same old threads and questions. "Why won't my cham eat?" "Help! My cham tries to bite me every time I stick my fingers in his face!" (etc. etc.) Having a more interactive and shorter-turn-around on the photo contest could really enhance the user experience.

That's just my opinion.

 

[jamest0o0]

@JacksJill so 3 won....

 

[Brad]

What if the reduction phase had its own moderator. Someone whose sole responsibility was to mill through the entries every month. Reduce the entry window to one previously agreed upon day after the previous winner is announced, find a way to limit people to one entry and have the Reducer admin get to work. That leaves the rest of the contest work to you and reducing the entry window makes it so people who are more serious about the photos get in but the willy-nilly entries don't so much.

A staff member who focuses specifically on the contest is definitely an option worth exploring. I think the biggest issue would be finding someone with integrity that always considers what is best for the contest long term. If we do indeed go down this path instead of the bracket route then I definitely expect to be talking more about the idea.

Reducing the entry window is an interesting suggestion. I agree with some members that 1 day would not be long enough. If we do something like that I would want to see a minimum of 1 week. Angelwolf brought up a good counter point: a long voting window can be boring for active members.

 

[Brad]

Well, I'm the one who originally suggested a bracket system (or tournament, if you will). If it can be automated, that should lessen the amount of time over all. Take the 1st submission from the member (good or not), and put that into the bracket. 5-10 photos per bracket, up to 3 preliminary brackets, should cover the majority of submissions.. (I think.) Make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to all, that these are being chosen for a calendar. People SHOULD have that in mind when submitting photos. The "poor photos" won't make it passed the first bracket of voting, anyway.

Most of the work involved with moving all the photo entries into different brackets can be automated. My bigger concern is trying to get people to vote in 3-5+ polls a month on a regular basis. How would we do that efficiently within just 2-3 weeks? That problem would also grow with any significant increase to the entry count. If we begin to receive 100 entries a month again that could result in 11 polls during a 2-3 week period. I'm afraid that most of the time saved from the improved reduction phase would potentially be lost to an increase in time needed to properly market each poll. I do believe that the final vote in a bracket contest is more exciting and draws more interaction from the community. That has been the case in the past, and I think it was also true in the recent video and photo tie-breaker contests. However, in those cases there was first a reduction phase.

When it comes to the amount of time that the voting is open for, I personally, vote as soon as it opens up. Then I sit there for the next 2 weeks and wait anxiously to see who is going to win. I would love to see more interaction from it anyway. When you did the video contest, it was very engaging to keep checking back to see who won next. Once you choose a picture, your choice is generally made. So why drag it out for 2 weeks of voting? If you form a bracket system, you should see more site participation, in the immediate future, as well as long term. Those folks who don't get on often will still be able to vote, knowing that the final voting is at the end of the month. Perhaps that will spur them to come back a little more often, anyway.

I know I get very bored with the same old threads and questions. "Why won't my cham eat?" "Help! My cham tries to bite me every time I stick my fingers in his face!" (etc. etc.) Having a more interactive and shorter-turn-around on the photo contest could really enhance the user experience.

I think you make a great point. The contests are really intended for active members and two weeks is a long time to wait for poll results. Even if we don't go with brackets on a regular basis this is something we should definitely keep in mind.