Hissing/dubia roaches

[sagemoon2004]

I recently bought 400 dubia nymphs and a small group of hissing cockroaches, to start my own colonies. My questions are: Can I keep everyone in one container, safely? If I have to feed protein to get them to breed correctly,(along with warm temps), how do I make sure they don't get too much protein, so as to not harm my Jacksons Cham.? Do I seperate the ones I want to feed off, gutload w/o protein, and then feed off? Just a little confused and I don't want to hurt my Cham, obviously. How long does it take to get these types of roaches going in a self-sustaining food source? The dubias seem to grow slow, and I realize I cannot feed off the adult hissers. Thanks for any info.

 

[maxttu]

Hissers take forever to raise from nymph to breeding age. Your dubs will explode before your eyes. You'll wake up one day and realize that you're being overrun with dubs.

I started early last Spring with my hissers (started with about 30 +/-) and I might have 120-150... S-L-O-W

Some have claimed to keep the dubs and hissers housed together with success, but I found that my hissers started to produce once I separated them from the dubs.

You won't need protein to breed 'em. Heat + oranges + darkness + more heat and you should be set. Hope this helps.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I keep them separate.
feed them like crickets

 

[fluxlizard]

Roaches are funny critters when it comes to protein. I've posted this with references somewhere here on the forums in the past but short version- they store what would normally be waste product and create what they need out of it. They can sort of meet their own nutritional requirements out of anything. So limiting protein may not in fact do anything to their protein content. I helped my son with a study for school on food preference manipulation using hisser roaches a few years back and one of the interesting tidbits that we came across when sifting through other people's research was that one guy doing a study found that no matter how he tried, the protein level remained constant on his roaches. This was before the thing about uric acid being stored and converted according to the needs of the roach was understood, so it left the guy scratching his head about what was going on. Note though- that doesn't mean the protein level of the gut contents would be unaffected by dietary manipulation. Another study concluded that roaches keep the constant protein level by picking that level from the available dietary items. This study was also before the uric acid stuff was learned though, so maybe had a wrong conclusion...
Bottom line- probably won't matter much what you feed as a protein source or lack thereof. In theory should remain fairly constant although- roach hobbyiests conclude that some species will bite each others wings or eat each other for protein when not enough protein is available. I'm not sure their conclusions are correct though- wings presumably a really poor source of protein as they are mostly chiton right? Seems like from forum members feeding mostly veggies and fruits don't have this problem, so my guess is likely a moisture source problem (fresh moulted roaches would provide moisture if say their wings are eaten and canibalizing would provide moisture also)...

 

[maxttu]

Roaches are funny critters when it comes to protein. I've posted this with references somewhere here on the forums in the past but short version- they store what would normally be waste product and create what they need out of it. They can sort of meet their own nutritional requirements out of anything. So limiting protein may not in fact do anything to their protein content. I helped my son with a study for school on food preference manipulation using hisser roaches a few years back and one of the interesting tidbits that we came across when sifting through other people's research was that one guy doing a study found that no matter how he tried, the protein level remained constant on his roaches. This was before the thing about uric acid being stored and converted according to the needs of the roach was understood, so it left the guy scratching his head about what was going on. Note though- that doesn't mean the protein level of the gut contents would be unaffected by dietary manipulation. Another study concluded that roaches keep the constant protein level by picking that level from the available dietary items. This study was also before the uric acid stuff was learned though, so maybe had a wrong conclusion...
Bottom line- probably won't matter much what you feed as a protein source or lack thereof. In theory should remain fairly constant although- roach hobbyiests conclude that some species will bite each others wings or eat each other for protein when not enough protein is available. I'm not sure their conclusions are correct though- wings presumably a really poor source of protein as they are mostly chiton right? Seems like from forum members feeding mostly veggies and fruits don't have this problem, so my guess is likely a moisture source problem (fresh moulted roaches would provide moisture if say their wings are eaten and canibalizing would provide moisture also)...

Interesting read. Not sure what that means exactly, but still interesting...

 

[fluxlizard]

sigh- I'm too lazy and tired mentally tonight lol

I won't spell everything out and go dig up sources again but this ought to spell out some of it for you-

http://phys.org/news177261249.html

As for the rest- if they can convert uric acid and into proteins then that explains why the researchers I mentioned kept finding constant protein content in their roaches. I don't know exactly how it all works because the guy scratching his head was unable to raise the protein content, not just lower it. It stayed constant. Also the researcher who offered proteins free choice foods found the protein level stayed remarkably constant among individuals, althought there is a slight difference male to female.

So in other words, if you have a huge pile of protein and a constant supply of fresh veggies, you aren't going to risk an elevated protein level. It is going to remain consistant. And if you offer fresh veggies only, you aren't going to effect the protein level either because they will convert uric acid to the consistant protein level that they maintain.

So all I'm saying is don't worry too much about feeding too little protein. They convert their pee pee into the proteins that they need.

And I'm also pointing out that does not mean that gutloading will not effect amount of protein in the gut, only in the "meat" of the insect. So still not a great idea to feed lots of protein for that reason.

 

[reptoman]

sigh- I'm too lazy and tired mentally tonight lol

I won't spell everything out and go dig up sources again but this ought to spell out some of it for you-

http://phys.org/news177261249.html

As for the rest- if they can convert uric acid and into proteins then that explains why the researchers I mentioned kept finding constant protein content in their roaches. I don't know exactly how it all works because the guy scratching his head was unable to raise the protein content, not just lower it. It stayed constant. Also the reasercher who offered proteins free choice foods found the protein level stayed remarkably constant among individuals, althought there is a slight difference male to female. So in other words, if you have a huge pile of protein and a constant supply of fresh veggies, you aren't going to risk an elevated protein level. And if you offer fresh veggies only, you aren't going to effect the protein level either because they will convert uric acid to the consistant protein level that they maintain.

So all I'm saying is don't worry too much about feeding too little protein. They convert their pee pee into the proteins that they need.

Can you explain that last part about the pee pee again? I'm cracking myself up here. Must be tired...

 

[fluxlizard]

LOL I'm cracking up here too, but it's true that's what they do.

Click that link and read or google roaches convert uric acid for better links that I'm too lazy to find. I can't explain it better than what you will find from scientific reporters. Was kind of big news a year or so ago...

 

[fluxlizard]

Uric acid and urea are nitrogenous waste products not useful to animals as food. But by teaming up with a bacterium, cockroaches can use them as sources for making their own proteins.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news177261249.html#jCp

That's the key part of that article I linked. Hang on a sec I'll see if I can find a better one that one focused on the symbiotic relationship instead of what the roach can do with it.

 

[fluxlizard]

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1781960/bacterium_help_cockroaches_store_excess_uric_acid/

Kind of more of exactly the same article , only more. I saw better writups when the story came out, but this one I just linked on includes the following telling statement:

Moran, Sabree and colleagues sequenced the genome of the P. americana-associated Blattabacterium species, hoping to better understand the nature of this insect-bacterial relationship. They found that the bacterium is capable of producing all essential amino acids, many non-essential amino acids, and various vitamins.

So the bacteria living in the roach could convert roach pee pee into all essential amino acids, many non-essential amino acids and various vitamins. The stuff I read before took it a step further and said the roaches could then use this stuff, which is the basic building blocks of life, and get what they need when their diet was not complete.

 

[fluxlizard]

Best link but heavy read

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/46/19521.full

Conclusions

The Blattabacterium genome confirms and elucidates its central role in nitrogen metabolism within the cockroach system, including nitrogen recycling from ammonia and urea and extensive capabilities for amino acid provisioning. These metabolic capabilities are likely to have been important in allowing cockroaches to expand their ecological niche by exploiting food sources in which nitrogen sources are variable and often limited.

 

[reptoman]

So,that makes me wonder how bad dubias can be for your pets if they are not fed a complete diet. It would seem that gut loading just prior to feeding is even more essential in light of the info. Great articles. I also saw some related articles about allergies and roaches. Something I have experienced first hand. Thanks for the info flux!

 

[fluxlizard]

yah- kind of makes me wonder if the protein level is kept constant what else is kept consistant regardless of diet if they can get all the essential amino acids and stuff from conversion.

And like you- I think gut contents at time of consumption by the chameleon are all the more important.

 

[patrickfraser]

I keep dubias and hissers in the same colony without any problems. Both are breeding fine. The hissers do take longer to mature and breed, but those things are HUGE as adults and it takes some time to get them there.